SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[kreso]

To chip in on PW:Kill - this spell is practically broken if one doesn't play with SCS/prebuffed mages. Backstab, PW:Kill, dead.

Even in PnP, all PW spells have a HP "treshhold", and I don't really like the instagib possibility in now has, since it overlaps with Finger of Death too much. I found the spell very powerful in it's vannila form as well.

 

 

One small issue I notice. If someone has a "Regenerate ___ wounds" spell cast on them and they travel before the spell has run its course, the spell effect is lost without having healed the person. It would make sense that whether a character is standing around or traveling, the regenerate should continue to work. If the character rests instead while regenerating, the healing is fully applied.

I don't think this can really be fixed. It's just how mechanic is.

[spanyam]

I don't think this can really be fixed. It's just how mechanic is.

Oh I see.

 

Regarding PW:Kill, does it use the remaining HP or the max HP in its calculation?

[kreso]

Regarding PW:Kill, does it use the remaining HP or the max HP in its calculation?

 

Remaining.

[Grammarsalad]

 

This would introduce the concept of "phychic damage" into BG, something I suggested back then for Feeblemind too but most players seemed to not like. I'd need more opinions on this matter.

 

Balance-wise I would have to think about it. I know it's a 9th lvl spell, but instant casting time, long range, no save 60 dmg is kinda a big deal imo. Are we sure it wouldn't be too good? Mmm...

 

I'm not actually thinking of psychic damage so much. (Well, it could be interesting... say, Slow for a number of seconds equal to spell level every time you make a saving throw... but such a broad-ranging change is for another conversation.)

 

Rather, I'm just looking at the original mechanics of the spell: if you have 60hp you die, if you have 61 you survive. As the magic assaults your body, that 61st hp, that one little hp, saves your life. I know the spell says it only affects those with <60hp, but the general mechanics of the game are, when one hp saves your life it's because you lost all the other hps.

 

So you could read the spell to implicitly work that way. Or at least you could mod the spell to work that way, and decide it's better than the vanilla one (if indeed you think it is better).

 

What about: 60hp or less = die, no save; over 60 hp = take 60 damage, save for only 30? That would at least prevent it from being inferior to Finger of Death. It is after all a 9th level spell, I really hate the idea of 9th level magic just fizzling.

I kinda like this idea.

 

Can it just fizzle? I really, really hope not.

[hemike]

I know I'm very late to this process, and I will qualify that I haven't played with SR yet. I will understand if you wish to ignore my comment.

 

However, looking through the readme for V3 and the planned changes for V4, it strikes me that V4 really goes much further than V3 in its scope of changes in terms of removing spells entirely, changing access to spells, and adding entirely new ones. This change in scope should be carefully considered, as it can be considered a disincentive to install for some people, myself included.

 

It might be useful to distinguish between two approaches to a spell mod: a spell revision mod, and a spell overhaul mod. The first tweaks spells to correct obvious imbalances and weaknesses, but is largely true to the vanilla experience. The second seeks to radically change a number of spells, with multiple deletions and additions, such that playing with it would be a different experience in terms of spellcasting. (Another angle is whether I could load a save game in the middle of the game, with a bunch of learned spells, and expect it to remain consistent with the mod, or whether I need to start a new game to really have it work as intended).

 

There is nothing wrong with either approach, of course, but a lot of people really are only looking for a revision mod, not an overhaul mod (myself included). The name of this mod might suggest that it should be the former case, editing with a light touch, so people might get the wrong idea if it begins to present a much larger scope of changes. Also, I might hypothesize that a light-revision mod has a better chance of being widely accepted and becoming a "must-have" mod and part of the definitive experience, compared to a heavier overhaul mod.

 

Of course, there is always the response: "Don't install this mod then if it's not what you are looking for". I can certainly accept that, but I really wish there were a mod that only lightly revised spells in a comprehensive way, while keeping true to the vanilla experience. I certainly hope this mod could fill that role.

 

A concrete suggestion is to allow the mod to be customized by components - have a core set of revisions that are lighter in touch, and an optional set of more thorough changes. That would certainly increase the versatility of the mod significantly and broaden the user base. I fully understand that this is time-consuming and difficult and may be infeasible - nonetheless, that is a suggestion.

 

I hope you find this comment useful, it comes from being genuinely interested in the mod and hoping that it succeeds in filling a role that a lot of gamers like myself are looking for.

Edited October 25, 2014 by hemike

[Jarno Mikkola]

...

Well, which changes would you split... cause some of the stuff can't be, really should you know.

[hemike]

 

...

Well, which changes would you split... cause some of the stuff can't be, really should you know.

 

 

I don't have any specific ones in mind, and I'm not familiar enough with the details to presume specific suggestions. However, a general structure might go like this:

 

1. The "Revisions" component: A mod component consisting of all lighter revisions and tweaks to existing spells.

2. The "Overhaul" component: A separate component that includes all deletions, additions, and heavier changes to spells.

 

Component 2 will definitely come after component 1 and therefore might very well overwrite parts of component 1. For example, a spell might be only tweaked in component 1, but if component 2 were also installed, the spell might be deleted entirely.

Edited October 25, 2014 by hemike

[kreso]

...........................

There's a fairly thin line in between "overhaul" and "revision", i.e. both terms are fairly broad in their meaning.

SRv4 is indeed more "daring" in it's approach to changing spells. While previous version mostly changed durations, added few effects etc. now some really new stuff has been implemented.

What (imo) players will mostly notice is that Spell Immunity is completely wiped out. I do share your concerns abut this, tbh. While I do like the substitute spell(s), SI is such a widely used protection and removing all instances apart Divination and Abjuration* (even more so if both are changed to an extent, and protect only partially of what they used to) can indeed backfire. Ultimately, it depends on feedback that gets posted here. I guess if most people complain about this, Demivrgvs could revert the change. I didn't really find it that gamechanging.

One more component that can be tought of as somwhat of an "overhaul" is that Spell Deflections now block AoE spells. This is a seperate component, hence it will be kept optional.

* - possibly a substitute for SI:Enhantment will be added as well, but as an 8th level Mind Blank, not as a 5th level Spell Immunity.

 

The second seeks to radically change a number of spells, with multiple deletions and additions, such that playing with it would be a different experience in terms of spellcasting.

As far as SR goes, don't worry. Magic missile is still great, so is ADHW. Chaotic Commands is still there.

Of all the changes/tweaks, I'd say that from my experience, the class that got the biggest "boost" in spellpower are actually priests, which gained four huge buffs: Sanctuary, Physical Mirror, Shield of Archons defensively, and Cause Wounds/Harm for offense. Mages play more-less the same. What worked in vanilla/SR3, works now, with tweaks which are mostly aimed at further balancing and distinguishment between spells.

More importantly, SR must remain compatible with SCS. Thus, there's a sort of a "limit" to what extend tweaks can go.

[hemike]

 

There's a fairly thin line in between "overhaul" and "revision", i.e. both terms are fairly broad in their meaning.

 

My point is not on the semantics; I think it's clear what I am getting at with those terms, and generally most would agree that "overhauling" something sounds like a more in-depth process than "revising" something.

 

 

SRv4 is indeed more "daring" in it's approach to changing spells. While previous version mostly changed durations, added few effects etc. now some really new stuff has been implemented.

What (imo) players will mostly notice is that Spell Immunity is completely wiped out.

 

There are also a multitude of other spells that are deleted or added. What if somebody is looking to simply have a more balanced and refined experience playing with the vanilla spells? Where the weak spells are at least worth considering and the overpowered spells are bit more balanced, but the overall experience can be reasonably claimed to still be a faithful version of the base game? This approach means that SR will no longer be for them.

 

I wonder how difficult it really would be to simply separate out the more drastic changes into a separate component? If it's reasonably attainable, then it would certainly cater to far more people and achieve the best of both worlds.

[kreso]

There are also a multitude of other spells that are deleted or added.

Not so much in fact. What exactly do you think of here?

 

 

Where the weak spells are at least worth considering and the overpowered spells are bit more balanced, but the overall experience can be reasonably claimed to still be a faithful version of the base game?

It is. Even if a spell is changed, it keeps it's base function. Dispelling Screen (SI:Abj) keeps you safe from Dispel/Breach. Obscuring Mist is sorta AoE Blind, but less overwhelming for AI. Chromatic Orb still has varying effects etc.etc.

It's not that drastic.

 

 

; I think it's clear what I am getting at with those terms, and generally most would agree that "overhauling" something sounds like a more in-depth process than "revising" something.

It's perfectly clear what you're getting at, but it's not perfectly clear just what exactly can be called a revision and what an overhaul. It's rather subjective.

 

 

more drastic changes

And this is what I mean above. What are "more drastic changes" in SR? Removal of SI spells? Not really imo, since you can "mimic" the protection with other spells (i.e. Pro Energy is a SI:Evocation, ProMagEnergy+DW is SI:Necro, Deflection protects agains targeted PW spells etc.).

For me, the most drastic changes are, in no particular order:

1) buffs usually last much longer

2) healing spells are cast much faster;

3) saving throws are distributed amongst Breath, Death, Polymorph and Spell

 

While all this has nothing to do with either removal or addition of extra spells, it affects the game in a (imo) much more significant manner than plenty of other tweaks or spell additions/removals.

[janoha]

While I am almost entirely positive when it comes to the changes made by SR, there is one specific change, that I really don't appreciate. I think the change of Death Spell into Banishment, and with that the loss of the death effect, is a serious reduction of the "coolness" of mages. I always liked getting to level 12, so I could simply snuff the life force out of lesser beings. Immensely satisfying. There are many other spells to make up for it, but I do miss that specific spell.

[kreso]

While I am almost entirely positive when it comes to the changes made by SR, there is one specific change, that I really don't appreciate. I think the change of Death Spell into Banishment

It's purely cosmetic. It works the same (the fact that it allows a save is a bug).

[janoha]

Oh I am glad to hear it, though I asked in another thread, and demi said, that it only worked on summons now.

[kreso]

Oh I am glad to hear it, though I asked in another thread, and demi said, that it only worked on summons now.

Aha. Yea, that's changed. You can no longer kill lowlives with it.

[janoha]

That really is too bad. In my opinion it is one of the coolest mage spells, and really shows how strong you are becoming. I would definitely reconsider. Maybe add a saving throw, if you find it too OP, but I don't really think it was.