SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[Demivrgvs]

@hemike, don't worry criticism is always welcome when it's constructive.

 

Negative Energy Damage

Skull Trap and ADHW are not actually meant to cause energy damage, that was a Bioware decision...

Actually, the official AD&D spell description says: "When the skulltrap discharges, the skull flashes briefly with red or violet light and violently explodes, releasing a blast of energy drawn from the Negative Material Plane. The burst of negative energy inflicts 2d4 points of damage plus l d4 points of damage for every level of the caster."

I already said I agree that Horrid Wilting should instead be "untyped dmg" (ideally, Jarno's suggested Magic Cold would be perfect), but the AI simply cannot handle the change (for both offensive and defensive scripts).

 

@Jarno, didn't ToBEx and/or EE fixed Magic Cold dmg type to not cause crashes?

Negative Energy is the lack of energy; a drain, an enervating force. Necromancy spells should harm in that fashion: level draining, health draining, aging, wilting (PnP wilting), etc.

I mostly agree, but I don't see why it cannot also do some sort of necrotic damage. I never liked 4th edition, but 5th edition looks kinda good, and necrotic dmg is there too.

 

Invocation spells should do damage via positive energy, a.k.a. "magic energy." And, Conjuration and Transmutation spells should do damage via elemental effects.

Wait...you think Evocations should not use elemental dmg? o.O

"Protection from Energy" should be renamed "Protection from Negative Energy" and should not protect against Magic Missile.

As Jarno says, that would really be a problem. What dmg type should I then use for stuff like Holy weapons, Holy Smite, Sunray, Magic Missile, Disintegration, etc?

 

Overall, I just pretend magic dmg is a more generic dmg type, which includes stuff like holy dmg, necrotic dmg, light-based dmg and force dmg.

[Jarno Mikkola]

@Jarno, didn't ToBEx and/or EE fixed Magic Cold dmg type to not cause crashes?

I don't remember the details... but there was supposed to be at least one mod that added the death animations to the magic ice/fire ... I would say it was the Spell Pack, but I am quite sure I am mistaken or something, but I never saw it in action, so I ... forgot.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Jarno Mikkola

[kreso]

Spell Pack

It uses a MinHP trick to avoid crash.

[subtledoctor]

didn't ToBEx and/or EE fixed Magic Cold dmg type to not cause crashes?

I believe EE fixed that, dunno about vanilla BG2 mods.

Wait...you think Evocations should not use elemental dmg? o.O

If I'm building an 8-school Magic system from the ground up? Yes, evocation spells would be manipulations of pure magical energy (magic missile). Conjurations could create elemental effects (acid arrow), and transmutations could also, by heating things up, cooling them down, etc. (beltyn's burning blood). Necromancy spells should cause life-draining, flesh-aging, and necrotic damage as you say.

 

But as I said we're stuck with 2e, with its gazillion contradictory sourcebooks. It's not worth trying to reinvent the wheel with a Revisions mod.

What dmg type should I then use for stuff like Holy weapons, Holy Smite, Sunray, Magic Missile, Disintegration, etc?

 

Overall, I just pretend magic dmg is a more generic dmg type, which includes stuff like holy dmg, necrotic dmg, light-based dmg and force dmg.

All quite reasonable, I would probably use "magic damage" for all of those spells *except* the one which claims to do "dryness" damage. Bioware's version is a Horrid spell ( ) that's been twisted into something ridiculous that isn't the PnP spell and doesn't even match its in-game description. And can't be changed because SCS. :/

 

Perhaps at least a description edit.

 

"Dark bursts of violent energy course through the area of effect, swirling around the caster's enemies and causing grave damage to all, whether alive or dead."

 

*That's* something I would cast "Protection from Energy" to prevent...

Edited November 1, 2014 by subtledoctor

[Jarno Mikkola]

But as I said we're stuck with 2e, with its gazillion contradictory sourcebooks. It's not worth trying to reinvent the wheel with a Revisions mod.

Again PnP, DnD ... 2e, 3e, 3.5e, 4e, 5e, 984e, none of them apply, we are stuck with the Infinity Engine, not a source book with alleged things, but this:

(the damage types resistances are after the saves...)

Sometimes it's hard to take you guys seriously when it's like you talk about rule books which actually have no concerns but to be thrown about.

Now then, conjuration is summoning forth an object, and in the case of Acid arrow, it's got nothing to do with the element of acid, but the creation of an object that has the capacity to damage the target with acid.

Fireball is good invocation spell cause it's about bringing forth an object from the plane of fire that can damage the surroundings. And holding it steady until it's ready to serve a purpose. See delayed fireball. More magic, more control, more invocation.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Jarno Mikkola

[subtledoctor]

Now then, conjuration is summoning forth an object, and in the case of ____ arrow, it's got nothing to do with the element of ____, but the creation of an object that has the capacity to damage the target with ____.

____ball is good _______ spell cause it's about bringing forth an object from the plane of ____ that can damage the surroundings.

Right, you've just convinced me that Fireball should be a conjuration spell.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Right, you've just convinced me that Fireball should be a conjuration spell.

Well, it would be if it didn't involve restricting the ball from blasting the mage away at the time of the summoning(it's not a summoning spell essentially), and the actual plane from doing so too.

Also it makes no sense in this light that Invoker could not cast Conjuration spells.... but that's another matter entirely.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Jarno Mikkola

[subtledoctor]

Well you could 'conjure' a fireball or 'conjure' a spell shield or 'conjure' an illusion... but for purposes of spell schools I adopt a narrower definition of the word. To me it just means creating or summoning matter or beings. Talking about spell schools, starting from first principles, I had these thoughts:

 

- Abjuration = manipulation of magical energy in a cohesive fashion; binding it into the form of shields, barriers, and protections.

- Invocation = manipulation of magical energy in a 'de-cohesive' fashion (if you will), directing it with explosive force. Invocation causes energetic releases of 'normal' energies, like Fireballs or Lightning Bolts.

- Necromancy = manipulation of life energy, generally to cause damage or to control the state of death. To the extent these spells cause direct damage, to me they should cause cold damage, since cold is literally sapping something of vital energy.

- Transmutation = manipulation of matter, which could sometimes generate damaging energy. Shapechange, telekinesis, levitation... and some energy effects. Transmutation spells could conceivable cause almost any kind of elemental damage, though perhaps not as efficiently as invocation spells. ADHW, sucking moisture out of an area, should be a Transmutation spell, along with other 'fog' spells.

- Conjuration = calling forth something that wasn't there before. Conjuration should be about 1) summoning monsters, and 2) summoning matter that goes beyond what Transmutation can do (e.g. spells that cause acid damage).

- Enchantment = manipulation of people or items to express magical effects. Charms, enchanted weapons, etc.

- Illusion = visual, auditory, and psychological effects.

- Divination = well, Divination. My only gripe here is I'd like to see it used more creatively. You could use Divination magic for self-awareness, to achieve mind-over-body effects. How about a spell that turns a wizard into an equivalent-level monk for a few rounds? You could even say Blur should go here, to represent the wizard using foreknowledge to move ahead of his attacker. I'd put spells with temporal effects - maybe even Timestop! - into the Divination school. Well maybe not Timestop, but the ability to influence outcomes, like Luck and Malison.

Applying those principles, I came up with a much more balanced distribution of the vanilla spells:

 

Arranged by level:

 

- Level 1:

conjuration - find familiar, chromatic orb

necromancy - chill touch, larloch's drain, deafness (actual biological damage to target's ears)

transmutation - grease, shocking grasp, protection from petrification (yeah - think about it)

illusion - color spray, spook, reflected image

invocation - burning hands, magic missile

abjuration - armor

enchantment - charm person, sleep, friends

divination - luck, infravision, identification, protection from evil

 

- Level 2:

conjuration - web, acid arrow

necromancy - ghoul touch, blindness (actual biological damage to target's eyes... and yes, switched levels w/ deafness)

transmutation - stinking cloud, strength

illusion - mirror image, invisibility, horror

invocation - scorcher, glitterdust

abjuration - shield (moved from level 1 and suitably improved - probably just longer duration)

enchantment - resist fear, PW Sleep, knock

divination - blur, detect invisibility

 

- Level 3:

conjuration - monster summoning 1, melf's meteors

necromancy - vampiric touch, skull trap (but probably changed from magic to piercing damage)

transmutation - haste, slow, flame arrow

illusion - invisibility 10'

invocation - fireball, lightning bolt

abjuration - protection from missiles/fire/cold; minor deflection, ghost armor

enchantment - dire charm, dispel/remove magic, hold person

divination - clairvoyance, detect illusion, non-detection

 

- Level 4:

conjuration - spider spawn, monster summoning 2

necromancy - contagion, wizard eye (it's, like, an <i>actual</i>eye)

transmutation - polymorph self/other, teleport field, stoneskin

illusion - imp. invis., confusion (yeah - make it <i>visual</i> confusion)

invocation - fire shield, ice storm

abjuration - minor globe of invulnerability, otiluke's sphere, spirit armor

enchantment - remove curse, enchanted weapon, emotion, minor sequencer

divination - farsight, greater malison

 

- Level 5:

conjuration - conjure lesser elemental, monster summoning 3, phantom blade

necromancy - animate dead

transmutation - cloudkill

illusion - shadow door, chaos

invocation - sunfire, cone of cold

abjuration - spell shield, protection from acid/electricity/weapons, minor turning

enchantment - domination, hold monster, feeblemind

divination - oracle, lower resistance, breach

 

- Level 6:

conjuration - conjure elemental, wyvern call

necromancy - death spell, disintegrate

transmutation - improved haste, flesh to stone, death fog

illusion - mislead, invisible stalker (like, a waking nightmare for the target... ?)

invocation - chain lightning

abjuration - globe of invulnerability, spell deflection, protection from magic energy/weapons

enchantment - spell sequencer (moved from level 7)

divination - true sight, contingency, tenser's (like, divining the skills to act like a fighter for a short period...? else, this should be under transmutation)

 

- Level 7:

conjuration - summon djinni, cacofiend

necromancy - control undead, finger of death

transmutation - sphere of chaos

illusion - mass invisibility, project image

invocation - delayed blast fireball

abjuration - spell turning, protection from the elements, mantle

enchantment - PW stun, mordenkainen's sword

divination - limited wish

 

- Level 8:

conjuration - summon fiend

necromancy - PW blind

transmutation - ADHW (yeah - transmuters get all the fog/air spells)

illusion - simulacrum

invocation - incendiary cloud

abjuration - protection from energy, improved mantle

enchantment - maze, spell trigger

divination - symbol fear/stun/death

 

- Level 9:

conjuration - gate, imprisonment, freedom

necromancy - energy drain

transmutation - shapechange, timestop

illusion - wail of the banshee (a deadly auditory illusion)

invocation - meteor swarm

abjuration - absolute immunity, spell trap

enchantment - PW kill, black blade of disaster

divination - wish, chain contingency

 

Arranged by school:

 

<u>Conjuration:</u> find familiar, chromatic orb, web, acid arrow, monster summoning 1, melf's meteors, spider spawn, monster summoning 2, conjure lesser elemental, monster summoning 3, phantom blade, conjure elemental, wyvern call, summon djinni, cacofiend, summon fiend, gate, imprisonment, freedom

 

<u>Necromancy:</u> chill touch, larloch's drain, deafness (level 1), ghoul touch, blindness (level 2), vampiric touch, skull trap, contagion, wizard eye, animate dead, death spell, disintegrate, control undead, finger of death, PW blind, energy drain

 

<u>Transmutation:</u> grease, shocking grasp, protection from petrification, stinking cloud, strength, wraithform, haste, slow, flame arrow, polymorph self/other, teleport field, stoneskin, cloudkill, tenser's transformation, improved haste, flesh to stone, death fog, sphere of chaos, ADHW, shapechange, timestop

 

<u>Illusion:</u> color spray, spook, reflected image, mirror image, invisibility, horror, invisibility 10', improved invisibility, confusion, shadow door, chaos, mislead, invisible stalker, mass invisibility, project image, simulacrum, wail of the banshee

 

<u>Invocation:</u> burning hands, magic missile, agannazar's scorcher, glitterdust, fireball, lightning bolt, fire shield, ice storm, sunfire, cone of cold, chain lightning, delayed blast fireball, incendiary cloud, meteor swarm

 

<u>Abjuration:</u> armor, shield (level 2), protection from missiles/fire/cold; minor deflection, ghost armor, minor globe of invulnerability, otiluke's sphere, spirit armor, spell shield, protection from acid/electricity/weapons, minor turning, globe of invulnerability, spell deflection, protection from magic energy/weapons, spell turning, protection from the elements, mantle, protection from energy, improved mantle, absolute immunity, spell trap

 

<u>Enchantment:</u> charm person, sleep, friends, resist fear, PW Sleep, knock, dire charm, dispel/remove magic, hold person, remove curse, enchanted weapon, emotion, minor sequencer, domination, hold monster, feeblemind, spell sequencer (level 6), PW stun, mordenkainen's sword, maze, spell trigger, PW kill, black blade of disaster

 

<u>Divination:</u> luck, infravision, identification, protection from evil, blur, detect invisibility, clairvoyance, detect illusion, non-detection, farsight, greater malison, oracle, lower resistance, breach, true sight, contingency, limited wish, symbol fear/stun/death, wish, chain contingency

 

 

Look, every school has useful spells! And it actually makes sense conceptually! I'm considering whether to code that up in a mod... but I generally use SR, and Demi has gone to such great lengths to balance the schools in SR that it's really not necessary.

Edited February 3, 2015 by subtledoctor

[Demivrgvs]

@Subtledoctor, I can partially agree on some of your changes, but there are a lot of suggested changes which look kinda arbitrary imo, and some that makes absolutely no sense imo.

Conjuration: find familiar, chromatic orb, web, acid arrow, monster summoning 1, melf's meteors, spider spawn, monster summoning 2, conjure lesser elemental, monster summoning 3, phantom blade, conjure elemental, wyvern call, summon djinni, cacofiend, summon fiend, gate, imprisonment, freedom

Necromancy: chill touch, larloch's drain, deafness (level 1), ghoul touch, blindness (level 2), vampiric touch, skull trap, contagion, wizard eye, animate dead, death spell, disintegrate, control undead, finger of death, PW blind, energy drain

Transmutation: grease, shocking grasp, protection from petrification, stinking cloud, strength, wraithform, haste, slow, flame arrow (only if implemented differently), polymorph self/other, teleport field, stoneskin, cloudkill, tenser's transformation, improved haste, flesh to stone, death fog, sphere of chaos, ADHW, shapechange, timestop

Illusion: color spray, spook, reflected image, mirror image, invisibility, horror, invisibility 10', improved invisibility, confusion (depending on how you describe the spell, it can fit both schools), shadow door, chaos, mislead, invisible stalker, mass invisibility, project image, simulacrum, wail of the banshee

Invocation: burning hands, magic missile, agannazar's scorcher, glitterdust, fireball, lightning bolt, fire shield, ice storm, sunfire, cone of cold, chain lightning, delayed blast fireball, incendiary cloud, meteor swarm

Abjuration: armor, shield (level 2), protection from missiles/fire/cold; minor deflection, ghost armor, minor globe of invulnerability, otiluke's sphere, spirit armor, spell shield, protection from acid/electricity/weapons, minor turning, globe of invulnerability, spell deflection, protection from magic energy/weapons, spell turning, protection from the elements, mantle, protection from energy, improved mantle, absolute immunity, spell trap

Enchantment: charm person, sleep, friends, resist fear, PW Sleep, knock, dire charm, dispel/remove magic, hold person, remove curse, enchanted weapon, emotion, minor sequencer, domination, hold monster, feeblemind, spell sequencer (level 6), PW stun, mordenkainen's sword, maze, spell trigger, PW kill, black blade of disaster

Divination: luck, infravision, identification, protection from evil, blur (eh? needs heavy concept changes), detect invisibility, clairvoyance, detect illusion, non-detection (I understand your logic, but this tipe of spell is expected to belong to abjuration), farsight, greater malison, oracle, lower resistance, breach, true sight, contingency, limited wish, symbol fear/stun/death, wish, chain contingency

 

[Jarno Mikkola]

... cacofiend, summon fiend, gate, imprisonment, freedom

Erhm, what ? (yes, the sub context is, the freedom not making sense of being Conjuration spell ).

All those spells are just different sorts of teleportation of material spells = Conjuration... practically. Yes, it could be argued that there's would be other ways of doing the same effect, but not as cool.

 

Transmutation:... flame arrow (only if implemented differently)

By making the spell remove 1 regular arrow ? What happens if the party doesn't have one? Does the spell explode and kill all the party members? 'rly man. But it would be so cool, man. Cool and useless scripting to accomplish a joke. Bad Imp.

 

The invisible stalker should be an illusion spell, yes, it's technically a summoning spell, but the creature should have the same illusionary effect as the were wolves in the Aerie's release related tent quest. Now what makes it a bit harder to code is the AI. So just go with the concrete illusion and be happy.

 

And the Enchanter needs a few enchanting effect, like the minor and normal sequencers. Think of them as that little extra enchanted item that doesn't fit that well to melee fighting, but you can carry it around until you use it. yoyo, metal ball that kinda of stuff in an actual item that you throw away after use, or at the target ..

 

And instead of that, Invoker just needs a couple of variety forms of different damage types per the levels.

[subtledoctor]

Explanations:

 

Actually Jarno hit the nail on the head. Imprisonment/Freedom = UNsummoning someone, and summoning them back. Using the conjurer's skills for a more advanced effect.

 

Flame Arrow could go anywhere. You don't actually need to script an arrow disappearing, it could be assumed. Yeah it's a bit arbitrary but no more so than it being Conjuration. And Invocation doesn't need *three* direct damage spells in the same level. Originally I thought, make Lightning Bolt a Transmutation spell. It could make sense, but Call Lightning would work better, since changing the air/weather is appropriate for s Transmuter. I'd also probably give Cone of Cold to the transmuter if Mord's Force Missiles are in play for Invocation at 4th level.

 

And yeah, all the fog spells = alteration effects. turning the air/moisture noxious, turning it poisonous, turning it acidic, turning it dry and moisture-less... they're all transformations.

 

Wizard eye: a diviner wouldn't need the eye, they would just *see.* An actual floating eyeball is gross enough to be a necromancer's idea, to use necromancy' skills to achieve effects normally in the province of other schools. Likewise Glitterdust: picture an invoker wanting to see invisible assassins. How to do it, when invocation spells normally just make stuff explode? Well, just explode sparkly motes all around an area. Clumsy but effective.

 

Illusionists desperately need something else besides Yet Another Invisibility Spell at levels 4-6. Confusion works if instead of simply putting people in a confused state, it confuses by way of visual hallucinations. Isn't that exactly what happens to the PC in the Windspear Hills? and Invisible Stalker is admittedly aggressive. But it's advancing the illusionist's art, making an illusion so powerful that it takes on a life of its own. Blend this effect together with the more refined but substanceless Mislead clone, and you get the more powerful effects of Project Image and Simulacrum.

 

Wail of the Banshee is the *only* vanilla 9th-level spell the could possibly work as an illusion... so, that's what I chose. Figure it's a hallucination so powerful it kills. Maybe just change the name and description to Weird.

 

I give enchanters spells that manipulate psychology, thus Resist Fear. I suppose they could therefore have Horror too, but it could go either way (like Confusion: induce it directly or induce it visually) and Illusion needs it more. Enchantment also involves imbuing items with power; thus the Sequencers (one of which in vanilla actually describes putting the spell into an object) and the weapon spells (making an actual weapon take on the characteristics of Mord's Sword or Black Blade etc.) You can gloss over having a spare one in inventory, because let's face it, this game *entirely* glosses over material components for spellcasting. It could be a small knife that is enchanted to become a huge gloating sword. I also give enchanters the PW spells, because Words = communication, so they are essentially incredibly powerful advancements of the Charm Person effect.

 

Blur is a heavy concept change, but the effect is precisely what would occur if a diviner was a split second ahead of everyone else. Similar concept for Luck and Greater Malison, glimpses of the future letting you subtly alter the odds of certain outcomes. Likewise Contingency, using temporal powers to retroactively prepare your earlier self with a spell at the ready. And I figure the Symbol spells involve symbols of vast arcane power, dangerous to normal perception. To understand and direct the power of such abstract and secret forces requires arcane comprehension - and "arcane comprehension" is basically the definition of divination magic.

 

Eh, I think that's it. If you want to try to justify the ridiculous PnP/BG allocations, I guarantee mine will sound more reasonable.

 

(EDIT okay I'm sure you could come up with a sensible rationale for the vanilla game, where for instance Enchanters get no spells above 5th level. But... why? Why not use the rationale that makes each school balanced and useful and interesting?)

 

But again this speaking about a vanilla install. Balance concerns affected those judgments, and adding mod spells changes those concerns. I haven't yet done a playthrough with SRv4, but it seems like you've done a ton of work to improve the utility of all schools at all levels. So I may make a mod with the above changes, but I would probably have it just skip the component if it detects SR.

Edited February 4, 2015 by subtledoctor

[Scourge]

MAy I ask what happened? The last eta was given three weeks ago

[Jarno Mikkola]

MAy I ask what happened? The last eta was given three weeks ago

You know that the eta is estimated time of arrival, there was a beta sent for those users ... but some estimates are just bad, lime mine, about a mod I sill haven't released and it was supposed to go out last summer. What happened, I stopped caring about time.

[Demivrgvs]

MAy I ask what happened? The last eta was given three weeks ago

RL happened. But it will be out either saturday or sunday. I've used this time to squeeze in a few more things.

[subtledoctor]

FIND FAMILIAR

 

May I ask (years after the important conversations have already been done) why is this being changed to an innate ability? The concept of that seems odd.

 

How about making it a single-use spell? I.e. learn it from a scroll, cast it, and it removes itself from your spellbook. If your familiar dies, you'll have to track down another scroll. In this way you can have "learnable innates," it's what my mid does with Sequencer spells.

 

That way the (generally single-use) spell doesn't clutter up the innate ability bar all game; but if you *do* need to cast it again, the option is there (unlike if it were actually a single-use innate).

 

Also, you could move the spell to a new filename since it doesn't need to be in any selectable lists, so in this way you could keep it as a memorizable spell, but still gain a level-1 slot for new stuff.