SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[toxin]

Thanks for the quick response Demivrgvs!

 

FWIW I don't think the long duration of Negative Plane Protection makes it OP... just less of a hassle. Five turns is more than enough for the vast majority of battles anyway, so this just means you have to rest after each one and cast again - an inconvenience at most. Same goes for the other shortened durations (e.g. mass protection from evil). And I see Chaotic Commands is still 1 turn / level so...

 

Plus with SCS no encounter is really trivial... everyone is so improved you always have something to worry about. Even vampires that can't charm or level drain you (meaning you wasted ~6 5 lvl spells + ~6 4 lvl spells on CC + NPP, which you can only do in high levels) can still drain CONST, summon dread wolves, shapeshift, cast spells (some of them), hit you with a pretty decent THAC0, etc etc.

 

Too bad about Chaos though, I'm really going to miss that spell

Edited September 14, 2015 by toxin

[Demivrgvs]

NPP & Long lasting buffs

I don't think the long duration of Negative Plane Protection makes it OP... just less of a hassle. Five turns is more than enough for the vast majority of battles anyway, so this just means you have to rest after each one and cast again - an inconvenience at most. Same goes for the other shortened durations (e.g. mass protection from evil). And I see Chaotic Commands is still 1 turn / level so...

The idea wasn't to force more rests (I love how Pillars of Eternity handled this matter) but to reduce the ability to use few spell slots to make an entiry party fully buffed for prolonged,multiple fights. As you say, 50 rounds is enough to cover pretty much any encounter - this is what matters the most imo - often multiple ones in the same area imo, but if you have only 2-3 NPP memorized you may wish to keep a few as a reserve rather than buffing multiple allies.

 

I admit that, as long as you can rest 100 times anywhere with no consequence, the shorter duration may just make you rest more, but ideally I'm just trying to find a good compromise.

 

Plus with SCS no encounter is really trivial... everyone is so improved you always have something to worry about. Even vampires blocked by CC + NPP can still drain CONST, summon dread wolves, shapeshift, sometimes cast spells, etc etc.

I do appreciate what DavidW did (although the mentioned CON drain could have been implemented better imo - if not allowing a save, at least shorter duration to reduce the "annoying factor"), but while SR is designed for SCS it also has to be balanced for vanilla.

 

Chaos

Too bad about Chaos though, I'm really going to miss that spell

I hope you won't! Confusion can finally get back its deserved spotlight, and you'll soon learn to hate SCS mages casting Waves of Fatigue on you. Let me know if you'll still miss Chaos after looking at the bigger picture (aka the now expanded and more varied spell arsenal for each school) and actually playing a bit with SRV4.

[toxin]

NPP & Long lasting buffs

Both your points relate to a compromise that has to be made to satisfy most of the users, and I totally get that. But since we agree both points of view have merit (I think mine has more ), there is another way - if technically feasible, perhaps you could have an optional sub-component that lets you choose whether long-running buffs last 5 turns or 1 turn / level. Everybody's happy!

 

Chaos

You are probably right. I always knew in my heart it was OP (no save for a 5 level gap just made it worse), but I was just having too much fun with it I suppose I'll just have to wait patiently for level 7 spells so I can sequence Greater Malison + Confusion + Hopelessness. Now that sounds like fun!

 

CON Drain

I totally agree with you, it's annoying and unfair (no way to block). If it were up to me (perhaps it is up to you?) Negative Plane Protection would defend against that, too. I mean it's established that the drain is due to negative energy, is it not?

Edited September 15, 2015 by toxin

[subtledoctor]

I think CON drain is not a result of negative energy, but simple anemia after the vamp drains your blood.

 

I used to *replace* level drain with CON drain across the whole game, and simply eliminated NPP from the game. It actually worked quite well, and gave those CON-boosting potions a reason to exist.

[toxin]

Fair enough, but at the very least it should require a grapple check like in PnP (or some sort of saving throw like Demi suggested if grappling is problematic to implement).

Edited September 16, 2015 by toxin

[subtledoctor]

Well, I think all on-hit effects like level drain, stat drain, etc., should offer a save vs. breath to avoid. Just apply penalty if you want it to happen a lot, but it shouldn't be automatic.

[toxin]

That would be just as good in my eyes.

[kreso]

Granting protection from CON drain leads to very same problems as granting protection to INT drain - the protection works vs both positive and negative modifiers.

What can be done tho is making NPP working as it does in PnP - the spell has huge duration, but it works vs one single negative energy attack and it's removed by it.

It would require a custom sec type, patching vampire claws and similar stuff with removal ability and voila. I don't think this would work all that great, but it's an option to consider. That would still not prevent CON drain however (even worse, in PnP NPP works vs STR drain of shadows and similar attacks.)

To make it work properly, all weapons ("claws") using negative energy attacks should be tweaked to cast a spell on succesfull melee hit rather than applying effects. That way NPP could be made to work flawlessly via a custom sec type.

Now thinking of it, I might do something about it....

[Ardanis]

I like the depleting NPP idea, though I'll vote for level-dependent formula to determine the number of protections it offers.

Protection vs STR drain is quite fine, if you ask me - if I were to face multitude of undead types, I would certainly like my shield to not be wasted away by wimpy shadows - who cares if I lose a couple STR points for several turns, when I've got vampires and ghasts to deal with.

[toxin]

After playing a while with the recent beta I can clearly say - 5 turn duration is just an annoyance.

 

We already established there are very very few fights that last more than 5 turns (and even those that do are generally already decided at that point). I don't mind the resting that much, it's the casting that gets tedious - CC, DW, Aid, Bless, SS, NPP, PfE, BS, FA, MI, Blur, SD.... doing this every 5 minutes is not fun (what's worse, I can't get the SCS convenience hotkeys to work)

Edited September 19, 2015 by toxin

[Jarno Mikkola]

it's the casting that gets tedious - CC, DW, Aid, Bless, SS, NPP, PfE, BS, FA, MI, Blur, SD.... doing this every 5 minutes is not fun (what's worse, I can't get the SCS convenience hotkeys to work)

Hmm, wouldn't it be a lot more simple to edit the .2da tables just a little bit and not use as many of those spells ? :devlook: :devlook:

That's what the monsters did too...

 

Edit: And surprice... I am with Demi on the prebuff+resting part of the dungeonering... The DM would never allow such, or well, they would just set the dragon attack during the rest, and you would dream a good sleep of sweet death.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Jarno Mikkola

[Demivrgvs]

After playing a while with the recent beta I can clearly say - 5 turn duration is just an annoyance.

 

We already established there are very very few fights that last more than 5 turns (and even those that do are generally already decided at that point). I don't mind the resting that much, it's the casting that gets tedious - CC, DW, Aid, Bless, SS, NPP, PfE, BS, FA, MI, Blur, SD.... doing this every 5 minutes is not fun (what's worse, I can't get the SCS convenience hotkeys to work)

I'm not sure what you are asking for...longer duration?

 

Just so you know, I don't want to encourage that silly super-buffs routine. If I was your DM I wouldn't even let you rest to regain all those spell slots often. Making rest almost impossible outside inns (*) would IMO make "spell management" more interesting (aka that silly pre-buff routine with dozens of buffs would be impossible), and most of all it would finally highlight the importance of non-spellcasters.

 

(*) Random list of places where resting doesn't make any sense: Irenicus Dungeon (seriously? Is he fighting in the promenade for 8-16 hours?), Nalia's Keep, inside Firkrag's dungeon (you kill all his guards at the gates and neither the ancient dragon nor his archmage send anyone after you while you sleep for hours?), in a random corner of the Underdark, few doors away from an Elder Brain inside a city full of fucking psi monsters, within the streets of an elven city under attack, ... should I go on?

[subtledoctor]

I agree about rest spamming. I bet it's even moddable! It would be really interesting if areas or scripts or whatever were edited to disallow *any* resting except in inns or certain houses.

 

This:

- CC, DW, Aid, Bless, SS, NPP, PfE, BS, FA, MI, Blur, SD.... doing this every 5 minutes

... is not typical, and certainly not necessary.

 

Tbh I think Stoneskin should be reduced to 5 turns as well!

[Jarno Mikkola]

It would be really interesting if areas or scripts or whatever were edited to disallow *any* resting except in inns or certain houses.

I believe you can make a list of areas marked as outside, using that make a list of their area scripts.. k, more like use the same list, make a sctipt extension where if the party tries to rest Nyyber comes and says "Ouh, bugger off ?"

Or just use the script action 321, after resting in the rest script so that it disallows resting in the same area more that ones in say 24 hours(the restoration of the flag can be set via the area script with using a global and a gloabal timer, duh, as re-entring the area when the timer has expired shall fix it). I would presume the SCS does this to the start dungeon after the first rest.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Jarno Mikkola

[toxin]

I'm not sure what you are asking for...longer duration? Just so you know, I don't want to encourage that silly super-buffs routine

 

I see your point, that routine may be a bit too much. How about a distinction:

1. Protections that are must have for certain situation. The prominent examples would be Chaotic Commands (e.g. against mind flayers), Death Ward (e.g. against demons with vorpal attacks), and Negative Plane Protection (e.g. vampires and wraiths). It's practically suicide to walk around certain areas without these so I'd say make them 1 turn / level (most already are, including Free Action), or even 1 hour if you feel especially generous
2. Buffs that are "nice to have" like Aid, Chant, Bless, Barkskin, Luck, PfE, etc. Walking around with all of these at all times is probably too much like you mentioned so either keep them at 5 turns or even reduce to something like 1 round/level. You would typically only buff with these before "boss" battles (at least those that you know about) where you need any shred of advantage you can get.

Edited September 19, 2015 by toxin