SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[kreso]

In any case the implication of what you said is that Freedom with a duration (even a modest one such as half a turn) you'd deem as broken, correct?

Kind of, since Imprisonment doesn't really end your game .

[toxin]

I noticed Breach doesn't dispel Fireshield / Acid Sheath. Is there an alternative to dispelling them reliably (besides DM/RM that may not work depending on level)?

[kreso]

I noticed Breach doesn't dispel Fireshield / Acid Sheath. Is there an alternative to dispelling them reliably (besides DM/RM that may not work depending on level)?

No.

[toxin]

 

I noticed Breach doesn't dispel Fireshield / Acid Sheath. Is there an alternative to dispelling them reliably (besides DM/RM that may not work depending on level)?

No.

 

Well that kinna sucks

 

A high level mage loading up on Fireshields and Acid Sheaths would deal 2d8 + 4d4 + 4, an average of 20 HP per attack! (which many times would be wasted on stone skins)

 

To counter these level 4 spells, you would need multiple level 4/5 (or a single level 7) spells to protect a single fighter, which would likely lose that protection on the first dispel (unless they have kreso's improved Dispelling Screen )

 

I would really love some tactical spell to dispel those. Maybe a "remove shield" spell (lvl3/4?) and/or perhaps "Improved Breach" (lvl6?) that would remove shields as well (like the original)?

Edited September 25, 2015 by toxin

[Ardanis]

Use spears and halberds, their range is extended in IR to safely bypass the fireshields from afar

[kreso]

I would really love some tactical spell to dispel those. Maybe a "remove shield" spell (lvl3/4?) and/or perhaps "Improved Breach" (lvl6?) that would remove shields as well (like the original)?

I guess Pierce Shield could be a good candidate for that; per it's namesake. It would again require a custom sec type on the original engine; I don't know how many can be used before overload?

Or follow Ardanis' suggestion, attack from 3+ range since fireshield-like spells have a very short range.

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

Use spears and halberds, their range is extended in IR to safely bypass the fireshields from afar

I know rational consistency is rarely considered, but bathing a wooden stick in magical fire is mocking reality just a bit too much, no?

[toxin]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, unfortunately I'm not using IR in this run

 

I'm not sure about Pierce Shield, seeing as it's a level 8 spell (seems overkill to counter a 4th level spell).

Also, it would change its current usage somewhat significantly, seeing as it's currently used solely against spell protections.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Use spears and halberds, their range is extended in IR to safely bypass the fireshields from afar

I know rational consistency is rarely considered, but bathing a wooden stick in magical fire is mocking reality just a bit too much, no?

Sorry, but nope.

[Demivrgvs]

Sorry it has been a very busy week. I'll try to catch up more tomorrow but let's see...

 

Freedom vs Imprisonment

I think I made Freedom as powerful as it can be. It cures pretty much every negative status on the whole party, and such an effect cannot have a duration imo.

 

Imprisonment isn't as annoying as it was in vanilla, but I'm still trying to figure out a way to make it even more "user friendly". For example I was thinking to make it "not permanent" and saying into the description that a permanent version requires more preparation, a ritual, or something like that. I'm not convinced yet though. On a side note, I was also tempted to add here a "slay gated demons, celestials, etc" feature (does imprisoned summons still screw the summon cap with the current solution?).

 

Pierce Shield

Not affecting specific protections was done because Spellstrike did ages ago. I have nothing against PS working as a full fledged Breach considering it's a freaking 8th level spell.

 

Fire Shield & Acid Sheath counters

As others already suggested, IR's spears and halberds are an option, but even without them you can just use ranged weapons. Getting a tank with high fire res shouldn't be that hard anyway, no? I admit acid res is more rare, but that's the point of the higher spell level.

 

My issue was that Breach destroying FS along all other protections was making this kind of spell fully redundant.

 

I know rational consistency is rarely considered, but bathing a wooden stick in magical fire is mocking reality just a bit too much, no?

Well, then you should be worried by Fireballs and other fire spells as well, if not more (e.g. Incendiary Cloud anyone?). Btw, when I make charcoal fire to cook some grilled meat I do use a wooden stick to move the other sticks inside the flame, and I assure you that it may get a bit black but it doesn't suddenly get on fire. I would have to leave it inside the flame for a prolonged time for it to ignite.

 

Free Action

I never managed to decide once and for all if 'stun' should be blocked by FA, CC, or none of the two. It doesn't help that there are so many different causes of stun (e.g. physical attacks, magical attacks, mind affecting spells,etc.).

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

No, no, please. It was better with zero justification. Leave it alone!

[toxin]

I was also tempted to add here a "slay gated demons, celestials, etc" feature

 

Maybe just add an "Improved Banishment" (lvl8?) spell that works on these guys too?

The regular banishment becomes pretty useless at some point, nobody is summoning hobgoblins anymore

 

I have nothing against PS working as a full fledged Breach

 

If by "full fledged" you mean it dispels fire shields / sheaths too, I'm all for it

[RE fire shields / sheaths] you can just use ranged weapons. Getting a tank with high fire res shouldn't be that hard anyway, no? I admit acid res is more rare, but that's the point of the higher spell level. My issue was that Breach destroying FS along all other protections was making this kind of spell fully redundant

 

You are right on both accounts of course. What bothers me though is that usually to counter a spell of level N you need to use a spell of level ~N-2, and here you need to use either N (in case of fire and acid) or N+1 (in case of cold). Perhaps if Protection From Cold was a 4th level spell it would sweeten the pill. A dedicated lvl3 spell could be cool too (something like spell thrust but for shields/sheaths).

 

I never managed to decide once and for all if 'stun' should be blocked by FA, CC, or none of the two

 

Regardless of what you decide, I think there should be some way to protect from it as it can easily spell death for any affected character in many circumstances.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Btw, when I make charcoal fire to cook some grilled meat I do use a wooden stick to move the other sticks inside the flame, and I assure you that it may get a bit black but it doesn't suddenly get on fire. I would have to leave it inside the flame for a prolonged time for it to ignite.

Well yes, the point you make is that the heat is not the only thing that matters, but also how it's transfered in the material(s). (here on Earth)An open flame is not hot enough to usually instantly burn things, and the material(wood) has it's own heat transfer rate which actually makes the surface material burn(making the black marks, process which takes a lot of heat and actually makes the heat transfer even worse), while the inner core will take a lot more time to heat up to have the potential of burning and fabricating heat.

Of course we do not actually know the worldly conditions(Standard conditions for temperature and pressure) of the Toril, so not knowing those, you can kind of throw the standard rules of thermal dynamics to the trash bin. Which is probably a good idea anyways as the alchemy is magic based. Where the above is physical chemistry(aka we actually know things).

[cipher]

Freedom vs Imprisonment

I think I made Freedom as powerful as it can be. It cures pretty much every negative status on the whole party, and such an effect cannot have a duration imo.

I was thinking situations with a persistent AoE (web, chaos...) or oh-hit abilities where if you don't time the casting right you can get caught again a moment later. But viewing it from the perspective of the attacker (defenders casting Freedom) would be pretty broken having the whole enemy party pretty much immune to anything but direct damage, so you're right.

 

Imprisonment isn't as annoying as it was in vanilla, but I'm still trying to figure out a way to make it even more "user friendly". For example I was thinking to make it "not permanent" and saying into the description that a permanent version requires more preparation, a ritual, or something like that. I'm not convinced yet though. On a side note, I was also tempted to add here a "slay gated demons, celestials, etc" feature (does imprisoned summons still screw the summon cap with the current solution?).

Then what would be the difference from Maze?

Actually, for what it's worth, I was thinking of suggesting making it stronger, but my suggestion isn't very lore friendly. Personally I never use this spell since it is only worth using it on strong enemies and such enemies tend to have good loot on them. Also RP-wise it does bother me that they could be freed at any time, unharmed and ready for more, so how can I claim I've defeated them?

Sooo... how about after the victim ends up at some hole in the ground the caster has the "choice" to collapse the construction crashing the prisoner to goo? In practice Imprisonment would inflict irresistible and fatal crushing damage. Of course it does beg the question why the enemies wouldn't use that against you. Maybe they should. That would solve the problem where you have a member trapped but no Freedom available and you are stuck in a party transition area.

 

Pierce Shield

Not affecting specific protections was done because Spellstrike did ages ago. I have nothing against PS working as a full fledged Breach considering it's a freaking 8th level spell.

For me it doesn't feel right to have PS be a half Breach. Maybe PS should forgo the spell removal part altogether and be a stronger Breach, removing Fire Shield, Blade Barrier et. al. and maybe lowering physical resistance a bit, like Know Opponent.

BTW I would prefer Breach not removing Armor spells either. They are underutilised already, maybe it would worth a thought. Same for Ghost Armor getting removed by True Sight. While it's an rational design on theory, in practice TS is so common, GA is a waste of spell slot.

 

Free Action

I never managed to decide once and for all if 'stun' should be blocked by FA, CC, or none of the two. It doesn't help that there are so many different causes of stun (e.g. physical attacks, magical attacks, mind affecting spells,etc.).

That's indeed making it harder to settle somewhere, but talking about it might be of some help to make our minds.

Would separating hold (countered by FA) and stun (countered by CC) affect the AI in any way or even be a good idea at all? At the moment both protect against both.

Also I always thought that casting FA on an already affected character should dispel what it protects from, same for CC. I can't find any reason not to.

[subtledoctor]

A high level mage loading up on Fireshields and Acid Sheaths would deal 2d8 + 4d4 + 4, an average of 20 HP per attack! (which many times would be wasted on stone skins)

Alternative, perhaps simpler solution: don't let FS and AS stack. You can only have one elemental Sheath up a a time. Have to most recently cast one replace the older one.

 

(Though... can you do that on the old engine? Would it require opcode 321? Is that opcode in TobEx btw?)