SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[Demivrgvs]

Ok, 5th lvl spells...this may actually be the toughest spell lvl to discuss.

 

Breach

Back then it seemed we reached a consensus about making this spell at least slightly less "game-ending" for mages, and at the same time somewhat more similar to its PnP version (which would simply remove target's immunity magical weapons - not only spells such as PfMW, but innate immunities too). SCS also uses it as a counter to spell protections granting immunities to elemental/magic damage, but I don't remember anymore if it uses it against spells such as Free Action, Chaotic Commands, and Death Ward. If yes, I guess we can keep Breach working against them too (they still grant immunities, thus it would still somewhat fit the spell's concept). Long story short, let me know if the changes below look fine.

 

The specific protection spells dispelled by Breach are: Protection from Evil, Resist Fear, Resist Fire and Cold, Magic Circle against Evil, Death Ward, Free Action, Fire Shields, Protection from Acid, Protection from Cold, Protection from Electricity, Protection from Fire, Chaotic Commands, Protection from Magic Energy, Protection from the Elements, and Protection from Energy.

 

The combat protection spells dispelled by Breach are: Mage Armor, Shield, Armor of Faith, Barkskin, Protection from Missiles, Spirit Armor, Stoneskin, Protection from Normal Weapons, Protection from Magical Weapons, Blade Barrier, Physical Mirror, Mantle, Improved Mantle, and Absolute Immunity.

 

I think this tweak isn't going to lower the huge value of Breach, but it can instead raise the relatively low value of certain spells (e.g. Mage Armor, Shield, Armor of Faith), turn some already good spells into real threats (e.g. Fireshields, Blade Barrier), and keep certain crucial protections up more consistently (e.g. Stoneskin).

 

Chaos

Meh...within V3 I made it almost identical to AD&D PnP, but I'd really prefer it to be something different than just Confusion on steroids.

 

Cloudkill

Its school is changed from Evocation to Conjuration, not because I prefer 3E over AD&D, but only because it makes much more sense. I have doubts about Acid Fog (though acid-based spells almost alway belong to Conjuration, possibly indicating a pattern) and Incendiary Cloud, but I have no doubt regarding Stinking Cloud (what can possibly tie it to Evocation?) and Cloudkill (poison isn't part of Evoker's domain).

 

Cone of Cold

I may try to improve its animation but other than that I think it's more or less fine as it is. This is a really devastating spell (it's actually more damaging than it should, as in PnP it's capped at 15th lvl) but unfortunately it's hugely underused by both players (if gore option isn't turned off cold dmg can potentially break the precious loot) and the AI (which can't handle its unfriendly AoE).

 

Conjure Lesser Elemental

Details on summons will be discussed elsewhere, but lesser elementals seems more or less fine as they are. We simply discussed about giving elementals slightly less staying power (though this should apply more on greater ones), and perhaps a bunch of new features (e.g. Air Elementals should get their Whirwind ability, while Fire Elementals may set targets on fire, but become vulnerable to cold damage). Ardanis would put all elementals into the same spell, but I think I'd opt for that only if really necessary to make room for new spells.

 

Domination

The only charm spell working as it should. This spell is incredibly powerful imo (3E moved it to 9th lvl!!), but for some reason I think it's fine as it is. Do you think I should nerf its save penalty from -4 to -2 (as per vanilla)?

 

On a side note, but extremely important, using a custom secondary type we should finally be able to provide a counter to charm effects. Break Enchantment and Freedom will hopefully "cure" charmed allies within V4.

 

Feeblemind

We discussed this ages ago, to no avail. This spell simply pales in comparison to the other enchantment spells at this lvl (Domination, Chaos and Hold Monster). It currently doesn't offer any peculiar advantage, nor unique feature (let's be honest, it's just a single target Hold Monster, and its longer duration doesn't matter in almost any situation unless used by the AI against players).

 

I haven't found any new idea, so my suggested solution still is to give it a secondaty "psychic damage" (very 4E like I know), which at least gives pure Enchanters something his/her other spells currently doesn't offer.

 

Hold Monster

It should be fine as it is imo, but then again, do you feel the current -4 penalty to save is too harsh? From my old games I actually felt vanilla's -2 was making this spell not enough appealing compared to Chaos (same save penalty, almost as disabling, but with HUGE AoE).

 

Lower Resistance

The current solution is perfect imo.

 

Minor Spell Turning

Some of you may know the huge planned revision behind deflection/reflection spells. Let's just say we want to make them effectively work, instead of just being a shield to avoid being directly breached.

 

Monster Summoning III

Details on summons will be discussed elsewhere, but I think at this level the current ogres should be fine.

 

Oracle

I'm still planning to make it a sort of Mass Know Opponent + Detect Illusions (but unlike the planned Dispel Illusion it won't dispell illusionary creatures).

 

P.S Ardanis recently suggested me to "merge" the almost pointless 2nd lvl Detect Alignment into 2nd lvl Know Opponent, and I think it's a really good idea.

 

Phantom Blade

I really like the idea we had to make it an illusion spell, and I may try to find subtle ways to refine such concept, but the most importan question is: is this spell worth a 5th lvl spell slot? Does it need to be improved?

 

Protection from Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire

Now that ToBEx allows spells included in sub menus to be used in contingencies/triggers we're going to make these 4 spells a single spell which allows 4 choices (aka a la Spell Immunity). We'll make sure to make this change AI-friendly.

 

On a side note, how the hell should we call the main spell which includeds all 4 Pro(element) spells? We probably need to rename either ProElements or ProEnergy and steal such name...any suggestion?

 

Protection from Normal Weapons

Here I really don't know what to do. As it is now this spell may be effective within BG1, but even there opponents worth a 5th lvl spell slots probably have magical weapons/attacks, making this spell worthless imo. Within AD&D this spell also reduces 1 point of dmg from physical attacks, but I don't think 5-10% physical resistance is going to make this spell great. We could rename it Protection from Weapons and make it grant a huge AC bonus, but I don't know if it would still fit the original concept, and I also fear it would "steal" such role from armor spells such as Mage/Ghost/Spirit Armor. Any suggestion?

 

Shadow Door

I think I did a great work within V3, making this spell almost identical to PnP. It's now very unique amongst II-like spells and extremely efficient as an "escape button". I'll just remove the current huge -4 penalty to its save against the maze-like effect.

 

Spell Immunity

You all know how I feel about this spell: it never existed within PnP, it's ridiculously OP for its lvl, and it doesn't even work as intended (e.g. SI:Abj doesn't work against most abjurations; you can still buff yourself with spells which belong to a school you're supposedly immune to; and so on).

 

Long story short, I and Ardanis would actually prefer to get rid of this spell, completely. Other spells will still fill the role of the various sub spells of SI:

- V4 Non-detection should be able to act as an efficient SI:Divination

- V4 Spell Shield can replace SI:Abjuration and actually work better than it

- SR's True Seeing already grants immunity to "offensive" illusions such as Spook and Dimension Door

- SR's ProEnergy (and lesser versions) can easily perform as SI:Evocation

- the suggested Mind Blank can easily fill the role of SI:Enchantment

- Ardanis suggested to import NWN's Shadow Shield to offer a SI:Necromancy option for players

 

Recent "investigations" seem to prove that SCS is currently using only two sub spells of SI, SI:Abj and SI:Div. Let us know if our assumption is wrong. If it's not, we just need to make SCS use Spell Shield instead of the former, Non-detection instead of the latter, and we would have no compatibility issue at all.

 

So, what do you think?

 

Spell Shield

The latest versions of SCS are actually using our fix ("invented" by me and coded by Ardanis) to finally make Spell shield work as intended. So, V4 will re-introduce this Spell, but with a possible additional twist: making it grant immunity to dispel effects. Such tweak will make this spell the true Spell Immunity:Abjuration, outshining the original SI which actually never worked against any Abjuration spell removal.

 

Summon Shadow

This currently is the only necromantic spell available at 5th lvl (though I'm going to suggest adding Waves of Fatigue). On paper this spell is actually better than Conjure Lesser Elementals, but I never managed to test it enough on an actual game.

 

Sunfire

I'm thinking about renaming it Fireburst as per PnP (perhaps it's just me but the "sun" part is kinda "out of place" imo). I think the current solution is really fine, but feedback is welcome. PnP version uses d8 dices for damage, but I'm not sure this spell needs more dmg output, does it?

Edited March 29, 2012 by Demivrgvs

[Salk]

Some feedback:

 

Breach:

 

I am with you here.

 

Chaos:

 

It's a bit too similar to Confusion, true. But I'd keep it the way it is in lack of any better alternatives.

 

Feeblemind:

 

What about making the affected creature drop anything that's being hold in its hands on top of the existing effects?

 

Suommoned/gated creatures:

 

Generally speaking, I would like to see a nerf of their staying power because at high levels the battlefield reminds me of Warhammer 40k and that is not good

 

Oracle:

 

Yes to your suggestion but no to merging Detect Alignment. I know it's a rather useless spell but it's characteristic and I would not want to see it gone. There is not only efficiency to consider when you evaluate one spell, in my opinion.

 

Protection from [Element]:

 

I support the merging here instead.

 

Protection from Normal Weapons:

 

A bit like Detect Alignment I find this spell deserve being "protected" in its current form and I'd therefore advise against changing it.

 

Spell Immunity:

 

You know how much I hate this spell (perhaps more than you do) and you also know that I'd like to see it gone forever. Your solution though seems the best that can be attained without breaking SCS's AI.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Salk

[Shaitan]

Breach

Back then it seemed we reached a consensus about making this spell at least slightly less "game-ending" for mages, and at the same time somewhat more similar to its PnP version (which would simply remove target's immunity magical weapons - not only spells such as PfMW, but innate immunities too). SCS also uses it as a counter to spell protections granting immunities to elemental/magic damage, but I don't remember anymore if it uses it against spells such as Free Action, Chaotic Commands, and Death Ward. If yes, I guess we can keep Breach working against them too (they still grant immunities, thus it would still somewhat fit the spell's concept). Long story short, let me know if the changes below look fine.

 

The specific protection spells dispelled by Breach are: Protection from Evil, Resist Fear, Resist Fire and Cold, Magic Circle against Evil, Death Ward, Free Action, Fire Shields, Protection from Acid, Protection from Cold, Protection from Electricity, Protection from Fire, Chaotic Commands, Protection from Magic Energy, Protection from the Elements, and Protection from Energy.

 

The combat protection spells dispelled by Breach are: Mage Armor, Shield, Armor of Faith, Barkskin, Protection from Missiles, Spirit Armor, Stoneskin, Protection from Normal Weapons, Protection from Magical Weapons, Blade Barrier, Physical Mirror, Mantle, Improved Mantle, and Absolute Immunity.

 

I think this tweak isn't going to lower the huge value of Breach, but it can instead raise the relatively low value of certain spells (e.g. Mage Armor, Shield, Armor of Faith), turn some already good spells into real threats (e.g. Fireshields, Blade Barrier), and keep certain crucial protections up more consistently (e.g. Stoneskin).

Sounds interesting, I'm all for nerfing Breach without messing too much with SCS.

 

Chaos

Meh...within V3 I made it almost identical to AD&D PnP, but I'd really prefer it to be something different than just Confusion on steroids.

Keep it as it is.

 

Cloudkill

Its school is changed from Evocation to Conjuration, not because I prefer 3E over AD&D, but only because it makes much more sense. I have doubts about Acid Fog (though acid-based spells almost alway belong to Conjuration, possibly indicating a pattern) and Incendiary Cloud, but I have no doubt regarding Stinking Cloud (what can possibly tie it to Evocation?) and Cloudkill (poison isn't part of Evoker's domain).

To me, they all could be put under the hat of Conjuration without too much fuss.

 

Cone of Cold

I may try to improve its animation but other than that I think it's more or less fine as it is. This is a really devastating spell (it's actually more damaging than it should, as in PnP it's capped at 15th lvl) but unfortunately it's hugely underused by both players (if gore option isn't turned off cold dmg can potentially break the precious loot) and the AI (which can't handle its unfriendly AoE).

I use it a lot more with SR installed, it is outstanding, but a bit tough to control. Thus I don't mind CoC being more devastating.

 

Conjure Lesser Elemental

Details on summons will be discussed elsewhere, but lesser elementals seems more or less fine as they are. We simply discussed about giving elementals slightly less staying power (though this should apply more on greater ones), and perhaps a bunch of new features (e.g. Air Elementals should get their Whirwind ability, while Fire Elementals may set targets on fire, but become vulnerable to cold damage). Ardanis would put all elementals into the same spell, but I think I'd opt for that only if really necessary to make room for new spells.

Look to what aVenger is doing in aTweaks please. And besides that I'd like to keep them spells seperate. Oh I also like Salk's idea.

 

Domination

The only charm spell working as it should. This spell is incredibly powerful imo (3E moved it to 9th lvl!!), but for some reason I think it's fine as it is. Do you think I should nerf its save penalty from -4 to -2 (as per vanilla)?

 

On a side note, but extremely important, using a custom secondary type we should finally be able to provide a counter to charm effects. Break Enchantment and Freedom will hopefully "cure" charmed allies within V4.

Does it need to be nerfed? I'd be glad if both Freedom and BE could dispell it.

 

Feeblemind

We discussed this ages ago, to no avail. This spell simply pales in comparison to the other enchantment spells at this lvl (Domination, Chaos and Hold Monster). It currently doesn't offer any peculiar advantage, nor unique feature (let's be honest, it's just a single target Hold Monster, and its longer duration doesn't matter in almost any situation unless used by the AI against players).

 

I haven't found any new idea, so my suggested solution still is to give it a secondaty "psychic damage" (very 4E like I know), which at least gives pure Enchanters something his/her other spells currently doesn't offer.

Yeah, or instead of messing with the number of elemental spells, remove this. Does the AI use it?

 

Hold Monster

It should be fine as it is imo, but then again, do you feel the current -4 penalty to save is too harsh? From my old games I actually felt vanilla's -2 was making this spell not enough appealing compared to Chaos (same save penalty, almost as disabling, but with HUGE AoE).

Fine as it is.

 

Lower Resistance

The current solution is perfect imo.

Yup

 

Minor Spell Turning

Some of you may know the huge planned revision behind deflection/reflection spells. Let's just say we want to make them effectively work, instead of just being a shield to avoid being directly breached.

Nice

 

Monster Summoning III

Details on summons will be discussed elsewhere, but I think at this level the current ogres should be fine.

Yup

 

Oracle

I'm still planning to make it a sort of Mass Know Opponent + Detect Illusions (but unlike the planned Dispel Illusion it won't dispell illusionary creatures).

 

P.S Ardanis recently suggested me to "merge" the almost pointless 2nd lvl Detect Alignment into 2nd lvl Know Opponent, and I think it's a really good idea.

Does that affect Paladines in any way? Other than that I'd say ok.

 

Phantom Blade

I really like the idea we had to make it an illusion spell, and I may try to find subtle ways to refine such concept, but the most importan question is: is this spell worth a 5th lvl spell slot? Does it need to be improved?

I use it once in a while especially early on (IR made me ). I like it as it is, but making it an illusion spell would be nice.

 

Protection from Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire

Now that ToBEx allows spells included in sub menus to be used in contingencies/triggers we're going to make these 4 spells a single spell which allows 4 choices (aka a la Spell Immunity). We'll make sure to make this change AI-friendly.

 

On a side note, how the hell should we call the main spell which includeds all 4 Pro(element) spells? We probably need to rename either ProElements or ProEnergy and steal such name...any suggestion?

What about Ring/circle of protection?

 

Protection from Normal Weapons

Here I really don't know what to do. As it is now this spell may be effective within BG1, but even there opponents worth a 5th lvl spell slots probably have magical weapons/attacks, making this spell worthless imo. Within AD&D this spell also reduces 1 point of dmg from physical attacks, but I don't think 5-10% physical resistance is going to make this spell great. We could rename it Protection from Weapons and make it grant a huge AC bonus, but I don't know if it would still fit the original concept, and I also fear it would "steal" such role from armor spells such as Mage/Ghost/Spirit Armor. Any suggestion?

Ack, I'd be most happy if it wasn't touched. Even in BG1 (at the time when you can use it) it's a good spell. AFAIR it's used in Rogue Rebalancing also.

 

Shadow Door

I think I did a great work within V3, making this spell almost identical to PnP. It's now very unique amongst II-like spells and extremely efficient as an "escape button". I'll just remove the current huge -4 penalty to its save against the maze-like effect.

Devastating spell when you suddenly loose 2 fighters I like this spell a lot.

 

Spell Immunity

You all know how I feel about this spell: it never existed within PnP, it's ridiculously OP for its lvl, and it doesn't even work as intended (e.g. SI:Abj doesn't work against most abjurations; you can still buff yourself with spells which belong to a school you're supposedly immune to; and so on).

 

Long story short, I and Ardanis would actually prefer to get rid of this spell, completely. Other spells will still fill the role of the various sub spells of SI:

- V4 Non-detection should be able to act as an efficient SI:Divination

- V4 Spell Shield can replace SI:Abjuration and actually work better than it

- SR's True Seeing already grants immunity to "offensive" illusions such as Spook and Dimension Door

- SR's ProEnergy (and lesser versions) can easily perform as SI:Evocation

- the suggested Mind Blank can easily fill the role of SI:Enchantment

- Ardanis suggested to import NWN's Shadow Shield to offer a SI:Necromancy option for players

 

Recent "investigations" seem to prove that SCS is currently using only two sub spells of SI, SI:Abj and SI:Div. Let us know if our assumption is wrong. If it's not, we just need to make SCS use Spell Shield instead of the former, Non-detection instead of the latter, and we would have no compatibility issue at all.

 

So, what do you think?

I'd throw a party if you removed SI without issues with SCS. (at least a small party here at home)

 

Spell Shield

The latest versions of SCS are actually using our fix ("invented" by me and coded by Ardanis) to finally make Spell shield work as intended. So, V4 will re-introduce this Spell, but with a possible additional twist: making it grant immunity to dispel effects. Such tweak will make this spell the true Spell Immunity:Abjuration, outshining the original SI which actually never worked against any Abjuration spell removal.

Whoa, nice!

 

Sunfire

I'm thinking about renaming it Fireburst as per PnP (perhaps it's just me but the "sun" part is kinda "out of place" imo). I think the current solution is really fine, but feedback is welcome. PnP version uses d8 dices for damage, but I'm not sure this spell needs more dmg output, does it?

I do really think its damageuotput is enough. Fireburst is better imo.

 

Cheers

[Ardanis]

Conjure Elemental

Putting aside the combat value of the ability to select the desired effect, as well as it being basically the same spell, being three separate spells also means:

1) sorcerers have no real way to use all three in one game; to a lesser extent, low INT wizards (Aerie) have the same problem

2) wizards have to buy/find three scrolls to learn all elementals

3) unless I'm mistaken, this is not per PnP

 

Oracle

I don't remember where did the idea end up, or even if it was for this spell (!), but back then we've considred the Arcane Sight effect - the ability to see enemy wizards' spell/combat protections. Although Demi said in the KR's thread there was a kind of problem with the proposed solution, needs to re-check.

 

PS

Breach

I continue being of the opinion that removing specific protection should be moved over to Pierce Magic, and that we have to convince David to take that into account (it's fairly easy to allow for).

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ardanis

[Constantine]

Spell Immunity

 

Yes, let's get rid of it. Ridiculously OP spell with a lame concept.

 

Sunfire

I'm thinking about renaming it Fireburst as per PnP (perhaps it's just me but the "sun" part is kinda "out of place" imo). I think the current solution is really fine, but feedback is welcome. PnP version uses d8 dices for damage, but I'm not sure this spell needs more dmg output, does it?

Rename it, the closer to Pnp the better.

[aigleborgne]

Summon Shadow

This currently is the only necromantic spell available at 5th lvl (though I'm going to suggest adding Waves of Fatigue). On paper this spell is actually better than Conjure Lesser Elementals, but I never managed to test it enough on an actual game.

 

I have already said it but to me, this spell is very weak in BG1. Shadows have very bad thac0, very low damage (with about 1 apr). I think pretty much all other summon spells are better : spider spawn, monster summoning 1 or 2.

Now I haven't tested it with wraith so I can't tell later on.

 

Tanking is pointless as enemies shoudn't focus summons, or at least, not that much.

When an enemy mage summon creatures, I'll focus him with all I have to bring him down.

AI scripts should act like this and not waste spells on summons. For attack, it is a bit more tedious as scripting engine is rather limited.

 

But all in all, summons should bring something usefull for party, other than tanking ability.

Edited March 31, 2012 by aigleborgne

[Ardanis]

Tanking is pointless as enemies shoudn't focus summons, or at least, not that much.

When an enemy mage summon creatures, I'll focus him with all I have to bring him down.

AI scripts should act like this and not waste spells on summons.

You aren't quite right. There are few things as annoying as watching AI to ignore a summon and keep hitting the caster. Why else would one use a summon if not to distract the enemy and give oneself more breathing room?

[aigleborgne]

Tanking is pointless as enemies shoudn't focus summons, or at least, not that much.

When an enemy mage summon creatures, I'll focus him with all I have to bring him down.

AI scripts should act like this and not waste spells on summons.

You aren't quite right. There are few things as annoying as watching AI to ignore a summon and keep hitting the caster. Why else would one use a summon if not to distract the enemy and give oneself more breathing room?

 

So, you are telling me that your party will get distracted by enemies' summons ? You are attacking a mage, he cast some summons and suddenly, you got distracted and give him some room by targetting his summons?

If the answer is yes for you, it will certainly be no for most players.

Otherwise, you would suggest to make AI dumb and get distracted by summons while players aren't ?

 

Nobody should be "distracted" by summons. Summon can be a threat, more or less important, they should have damaging or disabling abilities.

This way, even they are beeing ignored, they will still be a danger for their enemies.

By that time, caster can still do something : fleeing, going invisible, trying to cast more summons or other spells.

His summons are his weapons and sometimes, they can do incredible damage. Even if caster is slained, some attackers might die to summons after his death.

[Demivrgvs]

I've updated the first post with all well established changes regarding 5th lvl spells. There still are a bunch of spells I'm unsure of (e.g. Feeblemind) and I may bring them up to the discussion again when everything else will be set in stone. I'm writing a new post for 6th lvl arcane spells, but it takes time, and in the meanwhile I'd like to say my opinion on the above discussion on summons.

 

Certain summons should be able to perform as "tanks/cannon fodder" imo, and the AI shouldn't always be scripted to ignore them and recklessly attack the caster. Scripting all opponents as uber-intelligent beings is a huge mistake imo, as quite a lot of AI creatures aren't supposed to be intelligent in the first place!

 

When used against players instead what aigleborgne says is often correct, though multiple "minor threats" can still pose a real threat imo. Speaking of Summon Shadow for example, you may decide to ignore a shadow to focus on his summoner, but 3 shadows may end up draining your STR too much, and wraith's level drain is a big deal imo.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Demivrgvs

[Pacek]

Demi,

As you know spell icons come in three diffrerent colours, red for offensive, blue for defnsive and white for neutral. I'd like to suggest a makeover of all the spells so that they are tied to their school's casting colour instead. This is something I can do for you, but I may need someone to hold my hand through the technical steps.

[Demivrgvs]

Spells Icons

As you know spell icons come in three diffrerent colours, red for offensive, blue for defnsive and white for neutral. I'd like to suggest a makeover of all the spells so that they are tied to their school's casting colour instead. This is something I can do for you, but I may need someone to hold my hand through the technical steps.

I don't even know which color is tied to a particular school. I actually like the red/blue/white pattern more because it quickly gives the user an idea of what he should expect from such spell, but if you are willing to work on that I think both I and Ardanis will gladly help you if we can, and eventually make your work a component of SR if you wish.

 

 

6th Level Spells

 

Acid Fog

Its school is changed from Evocation to Conjuration. I was also thinking about slightly altering its dmg output to last a couple of rounds even after escaping the cloud. Most acid based attacks work like that and it would also make its dmg output work more similarly to AD&D version of this spell (where dmg inflicted increases the more the target remains inside the cloud). Overall the spell wouldn't change much, but ongoing dmg would make it slightly more different than just a more damaging Cloudkill. No?

 

The only real problem about doing the above mentioned tweak would be making the description clear.

 

Chain Lightning

It should be fine.

 

Conjure Air/Earth/Fire Elemental

We are thinking to merge them into a single spell, and to move greater elementals (which are generally considered too powerful right now) to 7th lvl in the form of a new Conjure Greater Elemental spell.

 

Contingency

As discussed elsewhere this will be made an innate ability gained by mages at lvl up.

 

Create Undead

Ok, here there's a lot to discuss. Within V4 necromancers will have a lot more minions at their disposal, and the huge overhaul I planned look like this:

* at 3rd lvl I'd add Animate Skeletons (the equivalent of the current SR's Animate Dead)

* at 4th lvl I'd add Animate Dead and make it summons ghouls and ghasts (should I rename the spell?)

* the current Create Undead will summon one Skeletal Warrior

I'd rename it Animate Skeletal Warrior taking inspiration from PnP's 6th lvl Animate Dread Warrior, but it may as well keep its current name. The point it that the current Create Undead is considered too weak for its spell slot (am I wrong?) whereas the uber powerful Skeletal Warrior deserved to be back, but to an appropriate spell lvl (it's so powerful imo that it actually rivals 7th lvl summons).

 

Let me know your thoughts.

 

Death Spell --> Banishment

As most of you already know vanilla's version of this spell actually was PnP Banishment + PnP Death Spell. For conceptual/consistency reasons I'm thus replacing vanilla's Death Spell with Banishment.

 

I was thinking to then re-add Death Spell to necromancers (to give them at least one offensive 6th lvl spell), but its true PnP form is completely useless within BG imo. Ardanis suggested to make it a sort of Mass Enervation to make it appealing, but now I'm even considering the possibility of not re-implementing it at all, because something else can easily fill this spell slot: Symbol of Fear. SoF didn't make any sense as an 8th lvl spell (2nd lvl spell Horror does almost the same!), but moving it here, as per PnP, and making it a necromantic spell as per 3E, should make it much more viable imo.

 

Speaking of Symbol spells in general, I'd like to improve them if possible and make them work more similarly to PnP. Long story short, Symbol spells shouldn't have an instant duration, they should affect the area for x rounds and affect all creatures entering it (though PnP limits to HD and max hp probably make them last shortly anyway). So, I'd add an ongoing duration (while making sure each creature has to save only once against it), though I still have to find an animation to indicate the area affected.

 

Disintegrate

This spell will instantly destroy a Mordy Sword without save as per PnP. Other than that the spell is more or less fine, but I need some feedback on its actual effectiveness. The save to avoid its massive damage will surely be nerfed because the current -5 penalty is above the -4 cap I'm imposing within V4, but there was a discussion back then with some players suggesting to make it -2 if not no penalty at all. What do you think?

 

To further refine the spell, what about making it somewhat affect golems too? We could make it a very limited effect as per PnP (1d12 dmg and slow for 1d6 rounds), but I'd personally make it at least slightly more effective (who'd waste a 6th lvl spell to deal 1d12 dmg?), and I wouldn't limit it to only clay golems. Feel free to bash my idea, the spell would still be very good in terms of power.

 

Flesh to Stone

Leaving aside all the technical issues/bugs the spell currently has (we should be able to handle them all within V4), this spell needs some serious improvement imo to compete with its cousin Disintegrate, not to mention I currently prefer even Hold Monster over it (almost same effect in terms of effectiveness during a battle, but with a larger AoE and cheaper spell slot!).

 

Long story short, the only way I can imagine this spell becoming interesting is by adding it a secondary effect, which can still affect a target on a successfull save. I suggest to use one of the following two solutions:

a) target is considerably slowed

b) target is petrified for 1 round

The former would pratically turn this spell into a sort of Improved Slow (which I was tempted to add), while the latter is inspired by vanilla's Implosion secondary effect. What do you think?

 

Globe of Invulnerability

Obviously there's no need to make any change here.

 

Improved Haste

This spell won't grant 2x apr anymore to balance its OP-ness when used on warriors (for dualwielders this pratically was the equivalent of casting Greater Whirlwind Attack 10+ times, with even additional benefits such as doubled movement speed, improved thac0 and improved AC), but it will grant +2 apr, making it finally work for any class (it previously granted only +1 apr to non-warriors).

 

Invisible Stalker

I'd dare to suggest expanding its current concept, making it able to detect and disarm traps. This alone would turn this previously underused summon into an incredibly cool one.

 

If I wanted to really go overboard I'd even suggest to make it able to explore the area outside the "fog of war".

 

Mislead

The current solution should be fine/balanced in terms of gameplay. I've thought about trying to understand how Galactygon made the summoned illusion take the place of the caster instead of appearing alongside it, but afaik there's no way to prevent the spell from displaying the hardcoded message which indicates a Mislead spell as been cast, making the whole "mislead" concept pointless.

 

Pierce Magic

To make it more similar to its PnP version, more true to how an abjuration spell is supposed to work, and different from Lower Resistance alteration, I'd make it completely nullify magic resistance on target (setting it to 0%) but for a very limited amount of time (only a bunch of rounds).

 

Power Word Silence

I guess it's fine, though not hugely appealing imo.

 

Protection from Magic Energy

I guess it's fine.

 

On a side note, looking at this spell's name, I may have a suggested name for the "new" 5th lvl spell which includes the old 4 Protection from Acid/Electrical/Fire/Cold: Protection from Elemental Energy. This way we should be able to preserve Protection from the Elements and Protection from Energy (aka Elemental Energy + Magic Energy).

 

Protection from Magical Weapons

It may get its 4 rounds duration back because DavidW almost convinced me.

 

Stone to Flesh

This spell was pointless from the beginning (very situational, underpowered and absurdly "expensive" for the few times you may think to need it), but now that we have Break Enchantment it has become even more laughable.

 

The only idea I found to make it at least appealing was to rename it Shape Stone and make it a sort of improved Stoneskin castable on allies (eventually retaining its cure petrification effect too). Other than that I don't know, if you don't like such solution I surely wouldn't mind removing it completely, and perhaps fill the free spell slot with Improved Slow (though I fear the latter would somewhat overlap with Flesh to Stone's role as single target disabling alteration).

 

Summon Nishruu

I guess it's more or less fine, though I never understood why they put both Nishruu and Hakeashar considering they are pretty much the same thing.

 

Tenser's Transformation

V3 version should be more or less fine, though there was a discussion about its drawback (no spellcasting) being too harsh.

 

True Seeing

For balance/conceptual reasons I'd make TS not destroy illusionary creatures anymore. As planned it will reveal invisible characters without dispelling Improved Invisibility's partial-invisibility, while allowing to cast spells against II opponents (as if they were completely visible to the caster under TS). Unfortunately due to technical issues we discussed with aVENGER I cannot make it work 100% as per PnP, and the above solution is the closest one I could find.

 

This spell will also be updated to make sure the new offensive illusions (such as Phantasmal Killer and Weird) won't be able to harm a character under TS.

 

Wyvern Call

I was planning to remove it completely, but it may instead simply get renamed/merged into the new Monster Summoning VI.

 

Back then I was thinking to override its filename (spwi619) with the new Shades spell, hoping to see the latter being used by the current AI without waiting new SCS updates, but I'm not sure anymore. In the long run it's probably better to simply rename Wvyern Call as Monster Summoning VI to preserve its concept, and hope future SCS updates (or other AI mods in general) will make good use of the new Shades spell to create a true Illusionist

Edited April 3, 2012 by Demivrgvs

[aigleborgne]

I was mostly referring to cast spells on summons. So it concerned casters which are generally intelligent.

 

For Skeleton Warrior, it is very resilient but offensively, it is rather weak. And players use it because it is resilient: summon one and send him to absorb all hits & spells, then enter battle.

Intelligent casters shoudn't waste spells on summons, and even less on skeleton warriors.

Now, level 7 summons are generally quite strong offensively and it is a good thing.

As far as I am concerned, I would choose offense over defense.

 

For Wyverns, you should replace it by monster summoning IV. I have always liked monster summoning spells and that one with ogres is very good !

 

For all other suggestions, I think they are good, I don't have time to detail

[Incantatar]

Summon Shadow It looks really good but using it for a while i would not cast it again. The shadows and Wraiths don't hit anything. SM3 is much more useful.

 

If we can use dropdown menus we should use it for SM1-9 too. Elementals could be incorporated.

 

 

And don't make Flesh to Stone petrify on a failed save. It's still death. You only need one hit in that round. Also it ends the game for solo players.

 

Invisible Stalker - It would be an very awesome spell if you can make summons travel areas.

 

PfMW - It's fine with 3 rounds/lvl. It was overpowered in vanilla.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Incantatar

[Demivrgvs]

Summon Shadow

It looks really good but using it for a while i would not cast it again. The shadows and Wraiths don't hit anything. SM3 is much more useful.

On paper it's really difficult for me to understand why many of you state MSIII clearly outshine SS. Shadows' THAC0 is indeed bad (13), but not much worse than ogres' one (11 - though enraged they get a small bonus), and in terms of staying power shadows win hands down even against enraged ogres with their immunity to non-magical weapons, 50% physical resistance and immunity to cold damage, not to mention all the immunities that stem from being both undead (e.g. immunity to death effects, poison, ...) and incorporeal (immunity to entangle, polymorph, disintegration, ...).

 

If you ask me, shadows are less "easy to use", but have much more potential than ogres when combined with the right buffs or when taking advantage of their immunities (e.g. make them fight your opponent in an area affected by spells such as Web, Ice Storm or even Cloudkill).

 

So, if I had to guess could make MSIII the clear winner for you I'd say it must be the "progression" of the 2 spells. The Ogre Mage is summoned in addition of the 2 ogres (within PnP limits the Ogre Mage alone would probably be too much for MSIII, but we all seemed to agree PnP MS spells are extremely underpowered), and he can buff his 2 enraged companions, making it a real game-changing upgrade for this spell. Otoh, Wraiths are summoned in place of the Shadows, they are better but not by a huge margin, and you even end up having 2 summons instead of 3.

 

So...should I increase the number of shadows/wraiths summoned? Are we sure it's not MSIII which is too powerful because of the Ogre Mage? If I add to our confrontation lesser elementals I fear that a Lesser Elemental can almost surely match, if not outmatch, 2 ogres (unless we add buffs such as Haste in the equation), but when the Ogre Mage enters the ring MSIII wins again. Am I wrong?

 

Monster Summoning

If we can use dropdown menus we should use it for SM1-9 too. Elementals could be incorporated.

I'd keep elementals a separate spell for conceptual and flavor reasons.

 

Flesh to Stone

And don't make Flesh to Stone petrify on a failed save. It's still death. You only need one hit in that round. Also it ends the game for solo players.

As I said we'll handle all those issues. I'm making FtS work much more like a permanent hold/stun, and you may get an example of that with IR's Staff of Earth on hit ability. So, one the the two secondary effects I suggested actually is a short 1 round hold/stun on successful save, and not 1 round of vanilla's petrification opcode.

 

Invisible Stalker

It would be an very awesome spell if you can make summons travel areas.

If by that you mean following the caster in different areas that's actually something I'm planning to do for all summons.

 

PfMW

It's fine with 3 rounds/lvl. It was overpowered in vanilla.

3 rounds/lvl?!? Edited April 5, 2012 by Demivrgvs

[Salk]

SM III vs SS

 

In my experience, they are equivalent more or less so I would not change anything.