New Spells General Discussion

[Ardanis]

Spectral Hand

Like Jarno says, it depends on what we want from this spell.

 

Delivering touch attack spells from a distance is possible, without AI complications - if SH is active, then casting a touch spell will create long-ranged weapon instead of melee. Actually I see no problem with keeping the attack type as melee with 30' range, like Spiritual Hammer.

 

Fireshields

1) Actually I wouldn't alter neither spwi403 nor spwi418, I'd add a new spl file which allow players to choose between the two. The AI will still use the old spl files.

You do realize that AI casting violet dual FS will look strange? Players already complain in SCS forum about AI having access to Dimension Door and other player-unavailable tricks.

 

That's why I'm advocating combining red and blue effects ala NWN instead of selecting from submenu, and turning the other file into similar spell. Acid Sheath is simply the closest variant, because it has backlash and is reasoned to protect against insects. It certainly is one level higher, but I imagine it's affordable, unless there're new 5th leel spells in store.

 

Scrollable Mage Spellbook

But is it a good reason to remove spells ?

It's not really removing. Upping Wizard Eye to Prying Eye came to me even before the 24 slot limit was mentioned, and merging two Fireshields into one is even older.

So in fact we only talk about removing Dimension Door, that wasn't there in the first place.

[Constantine]

Level 4 Arcane Spells

I thought about adding Vitriolic Sphere to Conjurers, but I'm not 100% sure, and I don't have much free space at this level.

 

I think there should be more acidic spells, the feeble Acid Arrow (maybe something else, I don't remember) is just not enough IMO.

By the way, what about Acid Storm (hope I spelled it correctly) from the IWDII? It seems that trolls don't like it very much for some reason

 

Level 8 Arcane Spells

Abjurers may get Mind Blank.

 

Shouldn't it be level 7 or even 6? I think level 8 is a way too high

[Demivrgvs]

Spectral Hand

Long story short, the result is not worth the effort, especially in a game where we cannot make touch attacks ignore non-DEX AC. Not to mention quite a few touch spells already aren't touch spells within BG (e.g. Vampiric Touch, Energy Drain, etc.).

 

Fireshields

1) Actually I wouldn't alter neither spwi403 nor spwi418, I'd add a new spl file which allow players to choose between the two. The AI will still use the old spl files.

You do realize that AI casting violet dual FS will look strange? Players already complain in SCS forum about AI having access to Dimension Door and other player-unavailable tricks.

Why is my suggested solution supposed to create a similar complain? Players would still be able to memorize the spell twice and select each version once, getting the violet shield.

 

That's why I'm advocating combining red and blue effects ala NWN instead of selecting from submenu, and turning the other file into similar spell. Acid Sheath is simply the closest variant, because it has backlash and is reasoned to protect against insects. It certainly is one level higher, but I imagine it's affordable, unless there're new 5th leel spells in store.

In theory I'd actually agree with you because:

- a fireshield with blue flames and cold damage makes no sense to me

- having a wall of fire lessen both cold and fire damage makes sense (in fact in PnP the red one protects from cold)

- having 50% resistance to both elements in the same spell would greatly improve the appeal of this 4th lvl spell imo

- making it a single spell allow us to not fear staking fireshields (or to add another similar effect without worsening the current status quo)

- granting immunity to insect spells a la SCS makes sense only for the fire damaging version

BUT:

- that would indeed classify as removing a spell

- if any AI wanted to stack the two shields it won't be able to do so anymore (I fear SCS does it sometimes, doesn't it?)

 

Scrollable Mage Spellbook

But is it a good reason to remove spells ?

It's not really removing. Upping Wizard Eye to Prying Eye came to me even before the 24 slot limit was mentioned, and merging two Fireshields into one is even older.

So in fact we only talk about removing Dimension Door, that wasn't there in the first place.

Exactly my point.

 

Acid based spells

I thought about adding Vitriolic Sphere to Conjurers, but I'm not 100% sure, and I don't have much free space at this level.

I think there should be more acidic spells, the feeble Acid Arrow (maybe something else, I don't remember) is just not enough IMO.

By the way, what about Acid Storm (hope I spelled it correctly) from the IWDII? It seems that trolls don't like it very much for some reason

I'd even have its animation (from IWD) but it's a 6th lvl spell almost identical to Acid Fog. I could move it to another lvl but it won't change the fact that it wouldn't be much unique.

 

Level 8 Arcane Spells

Abjurers may get Mind Blank.

Shouldn't it be level 7 or even 6? I think level 8 is a way too high

That's the level it always occupied in PnP. Truth is that BG's Chotic Commands is waaay more powerful than it should, making this spell look like underpowered. That being said, MB still is slightly better than CC because it also protects from fear, a bunch of illusions (e.g. Phantasmal Killer and Weird) and most divinations (well it doesn't work vs True Seeing afaik, thus this aspect is kinda limited outside of PnP), not to mention it lasts a full day (again, due to how "real time vs in-game time" work in a non-PnP game this aspect is lessened within BG, as CC already lasts up to 4 hours).

[Jarno Mikkola]

Fireshields

1) Actually I wouldn't alter neither spwi403 nor spwi418, I'd add a new spl file which allow players to choose between the two. The AI will still use the old spl files.

You do realize that AI casting violet dual FS will look strange? Players already complain in SCS forum about AI having access to Dimension Door and other player-unavailable tricks.

Why is my suggested solution supposed to create a similar complain? Players would still be able to memorize the spell twice and select each version once, getting the violet shield.

If the two Fireshield spells are not casted at the same time, the AI can be made to think it has casted them both by making a change in the spell.ids file, or what ever the scripting uses to identify the spells with... by adding them both to each others numbers... so the AI gets to think it has casted both spells with one spells effect...

So just combine the spells and make them both the same one...

 

Scrollable Mage Spellbook

It's not really removing.

Then why say that you would remove spell ...

4th level spell slots

2) "removing" Dimension Door

4) removing either Farsight or Wizard Eye

 

BUT:

- that would indeed classify as removing a spell

- if any AI wanted to stack the two shields it won't be able to do so anymore (I fear SCS does it sometimes, doesn't it?)

- You are altering both of the spells, you are not actually removing either...

-

[Constantine]

4th level spell slots

Now, as it stands now we have up to three new spells for this level (Phantasmal Killer, Mordenkainen's Force Missiles and Vitriolic Sphere) but not a single free spell slot for them. We may have multiple ways to free that slots:

1) making Fireshield spells use only one slot

2) "removing" Dimension Door

3) taking into account that Simbul's Spell Matrix may become an innate spell

4) removing either Farsight or Wizard Eye

5) any suggestion?

 

1) I guess this is the obvious first choice as long as ToBEx really allows us to do so

 

Yes it is.

 

2) I know that many players love this spell, but removing LOS requirement is not doable for its scroll, and it's potentially gamebreaking in any case. What about "keeping" it with LOS requirement implementing on of its PnP lower level versions of it (Dimensional Hop/Step)?

 

I think we should keep DD in any case. NPC's tend to use it all the time (well not exactly this particular spell, but this is irrelevant) and players should have it too.

 

3) assuming we want the whole "contingencies/triggers become innates" thing to be optional (I guess we have to right?) this would mean either Mordy Missiles or Vitriolic Sphere will be installed only if such component frees 1 slot.

 

I'd vote for Vitriolic Sphere in that case.

 

4) ok, it may sound strange to remove a divination spell, but these two actually do the very same thing with the very same spell level! I do think keeping only one of the two would be more than enough, am I wrong?

Remove Farsight and keep Wizard Eye then

[polytope]

Fireshields

Fireshields were still stackable with themselves the last time I checked, also, their backlash damage had a power of zero, ignored MR and went through any protection. In the case of a wizard with 4 of them (2 in prebuffs, 2 more activated through sequencer) it was like getting hit by Wilting every time you attacked him.

As far as I remember multiple fireshields of the same type don't stak, thus the max you can have is the violet 2x fireshield combo which inflicts 2d6 +2/lvl (up to +20) on each hit, which doesn't sound too OP considering you're using two 4th lvl spell slots to achieve it.

I think I see the problem, SCS clones these spells for use in prebuffs and sequencers, which reverts them to being stackable as the spell resource is changed.

 

I'd give fireshields a positive power level for their backlash but make each grant immunity to backlashes from fireshields of the same color.

Assignig them a power lvl would make them disintegrate Spell Deflection-like spells and grant another easy cheat to get infinity spells via Spell Trap. I don't see much benefit from such a change, what do you want to achieve? Nerf them?

If need be, the backlashes could be flagged as "magic attack" which allows them to ignore spell turning but not Globes of Invulnerability or Rakshasa/Golem/Demilich immunities - it also looked strange for mages to burn each other with their fireshields without burning themselves on their own fireshield.

[amanasleep]

My suggestions:

 

Flaming Sphere

 

This would have to be done right. Theoretically it should be immune to all damage except for cold, but would need to be ignored as a creature in enemy scripts, otherwise they would attack it and you get Mordy Sword at M2!

 

Blink

 

This may be too powerful in BG, but it's a great spell.

 

Eyebite

 

The effects don't need to be canon, but allowing the PC to have gaze attacks is awesome.

 

Forcecage

 

There are a few good things here.

 

1. Force fields require Disintegrate to destroy, making this spell more resemble its PnP incarnation rather than just be a single target killer with a significant drawback.

 

2. Provides a no-save version of Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, or a small area no-save Entangle. Only question is whether this is too powerful even for L7 in BG2.

[Demivrgvs]

Flaming Sphere

This would have to be done right. Theoretically it should be immune to all damage except for cold, but would need to be ignored as a creature in enemy scripts, otherwise they would attack it and you get Mordy Sword at M2!

Which is your suggested solution to implement its animation? Anyway, it's not a must have for me even if we could make it work as it should (I really doubt we can) because we already have a fire based Evocation spell at this level, and very unique one (no other spell works like Aganazzar's Scorcher) though I must admit this one is kinda unique too (which is one of the reasons it's hard to implement).

 

 

Blink

This may be too powerful in BG, but it's a great spell.

Mmm...how would you implement this? As per your link (aka 3E) or as per AD&D? The latter one randomly teleported the caster from one point to another one within 10 feet, which pratically means applying SR V3 Dimension Door on the caster once per round in a random direction.

 

AD&D one could cous a bunch of issues just like Teleport Field does, but other than that it should be doable, while 3E one can be implemented in several ways (depending on how the ethereal state works), greatly varying its effectiveness.

 

Eyebite

The effects don't need to be canon, but allowing the PC to have gaze attacks is awesome.

Mmm...interesting, though it would probably have a "mod-added" feel to it imo.

 

Forcecage

Within BG it would pretty much be a cheaper Maze on steroids, making it really OP imo. Am I wrong?

[amanasleep]

Flaming Sphere

This would have to be done right. Theoretically it should be immune to all damage except for cold, but would need to be ignored as a creature in enemy scripts, otherwise they would attack it and you get Mordy Sword at M2!

Which is your suggested solution to implement its animation? Anyway, it's not a must have for me even if we could make it work as it should (I really doubt we can) because we already have a fire based Evocation spell at this level, and very unique one (no other spell works like Aganazzar's Scorcher) though I must admit this one is kinda unique too (which is one of the reasons it's hard to implement).

 

Sorry, I make no claims to understand modding. I agree that with Scorcher at level 2 it is not needed. Maybe animate it as an invisible creature (without invis flag) with Fireshield red on it?

 

Blink

This may be too powerful in BG, but it's a great spell.

Mmm...how would you implement this? As per your link (aka 3E) or as per AD&D? The latter one randomly teleported the caster from one point to another one within 10 feet, which pratically means applying SR V3 Dimension Door on the caster once per round in a random direction.

 

AD&D one could cous a bunch of issues just like Teleport Field does, but other than that it should be doable, while 3E one can be implemented in several ways (depending on how the ethereal state works), greatly varying its effectiveness.

 

I would argue for 3E implementation for the reasons you specify, but if they weren't unsolvable then the AD&D version would actually be less abusable than Telefield because it can't be used to corral enemies into other areas, and protects only the caster from melee instead of the entire party.

 

The 3E version seems to cause fewer engine problems, but many implementations (50% resistance to all damage types, etc) are probably too abusable.

 

Eyebite

The effects don't need to be canon, but allowing the PC to have gaze attacks is awesome.

Mmm...interesting, though it would probably have a "mod-added" feel to it imo.

 

It has a very "powerful wizard" feel to me!

 

Forcecage

Within BG it would pretty much be a cheaper Maze on steroids, making it really OP imo. Am I wrong?

 

There are many key differences with Maze:

 

1. Affects multiple creatures.

2. Creatures do not disappear in Forcecage 1.

3. Forcecage 1 does not prevent missile or spell combat in either direction, only movement and melee. (Description seems to suggest that missile combat in either direction would be reduced in effectiveness).

4. Forcecage 2 is indeed Maze on steroids, although it is really more of an Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on steroids, as it would not allow trap setting, etc. Either way I would suggest implementing only Forcecage 1.

[Lawlight]

First of all - Diviner Love is well needed and I like the fact that you want to implement at least one spell for them per spelllevel!

 

Level 7 Arcane Spells

I'd need a Divination spell but I'm unable to find a decent one. Perhaps IWD Executioner's Eyes could fill this spot.

 

I really like the idea, because it is one of my all-time favorite spells from IWD and really could represent the offensive part of the Divination school - a school which is really lacking offensive power.

 

Level 8 Arcane Spell

Once again, I need at least one Divination spell here, and the only one I could find is Prying Eye, which more or less is a Wizard Eye spell which can detect illusions and traps. undecided.gif I'd probably prefer to find a way to implement Moment of Prescience over it, but right now I have no idea how I could do that.

 

I hope you find a way to implement Moment of Prescience - it would be a cool abilty for Diviners.

 

Any new spell needs to have a specific purpose, like filling a missing "hole" (e.g. a specialist mage not having any spell from his school at xth level), or improve gameplay/variety (e.g. we neither need nor want 3-4 fire based invocations at xth level, but having instead cold, and electrical based invocations along with all those pre existing fire based ones would seriously improve the overall gameplay imo)

 

My biggest dream here is the implementation of Ice Wall or Wall of Stone which would improve gameplay alot in my opinion. It would allow totally new tactics for both group and soloplaying - though I think it would be much more useful and fun in solo scenarios (nice to hold melees on distance for a short period of time). Both Walls should be destroyed by normal melee attacks and Wall of Ice instantly by fire AOE spells like fireball (and Wall of Stone instantly by disintegrate). The castime should be something like 1, because it should be useable in the heat of the battle for emergeny purposes. But I have no idea if the whole concept is implementable. (I'm a total newbie in this area, but mabye it could be implemented by summon several creatures unable to move, attack and with adequate immunitys, resistances etc. , which are killable by friend and foe and look like ice or stoneblocks)

 

Another cool new tool would be Wall of Fire. It could also provide a small knockback if a creature trys to pass through (saving throw allowed), which would simulate the fact that you need all your willpower to pass a wall of hot fire. I think there is an animation for this in IWD too.

 

For Necromancers I really like to see Soul Eater from IWD. I like the concept of dealing damage is linked with the creation of undead creatures. It could scale with casterlevel, to deal more damage + summon more powerfull undeads. In my opinion summon spells from the necromancy school should really cost life in form of either some lifepoints from the summoner or his foes. The whole event of summoning an undead creature should be really evil and abominable.

[Demivrgvs]

Fire/Ice/Stone Wall spells

My biggest dream here is the implementation of Ice Wall or Wall of Stone which would improve gameplay alot in my opinion. ...

 

Another cool new tool would be Wall of Fire.

As much as I'd like to implement at least one of these (Fire Wall is by far the most famous), implementing them is outstandingly problematic imo.

 

I surely don't have an animation fro Ice Wall, while I should be able to do something about Fire Wall (IWD ) and Stone Walls (I think this could be implemented with multiple fake-summons using giant rocks animation...but it could be tricky). Anyway, even if those two are possible, I doubt their implementation would be flawless (e.g. I don't have a "linear & static" projectile for Wall of Fire's AoE).

 

Worst of all, I don't know how the AI would react to them. Perhaps it would tear down Stone Wall's rocks if it considers them opponents, but how would I prevent the AI from wasting spells on these rocks? Fire Wall in particular could be heavily exploited by players (e.g. running in circles to make the poor AI run into the wall multiple times).

 

Soul Eater

For Necromancers I really like to see Soul Eater from IWD. I like the concept of dealing damage is linked with the creation of undead creatures. It could scale with casterlevel, to deal more damage + summon more powerfull undeads. In my opinion summon spells from the necromancy school should really cost life in form of either some lifepoints from the summoner or his foes. The whole event of summoning an undead creature should be really evil and abominable.

I was indeed thinking about it as a "replacement" for Death Spell (which will be turned into Banishment), but this is another of those spells which is really hard to implement (I'd surely need to use scripts ).

[Ardanis]

Soul Eater

this is another of those spells which is really hard to implement (I'd surely need to use scripts ).

Thanks to info by Galactygon, EFF-targeting dead objects (par1=3, par2=3) is sufficient.

[Lawlight]

What about Alacrity?

The little brother of Improved Alacrity.

 

One could use a standardized value of casting speed reduction for all spell levels, if a seperation appears to be too difficult. Another intersting possibility would be to allow the caster to cast 2 spells per round instead of one (but dunno if this would be to much of a disadvantage for the enemy mages without this spell - so maybe casting speed reduction of 1 or 2 is more then enough). For balancing purposes, one could add that the caster becomes mentally fatigued after the spell expires (like haste, but more in the direction of an increased casting speed and a saving throw malus for 5 rounds after). Together with IR (<3) it shouldn't be overpowerd, because robe of vecna burns in hell.

[Guest i30817]

Something to replace thieves disarm traps.

 

PLEASE

 

There is this:

http://www.shsforums.net/topic/41138-alter...nock-spell-mod/

 

But i'm unsure how it interacts with your knock alteration (what does that do anyway?)

[Guest i30817]

Fire/Ice/Stone Wall spells

My biggest dream here is the implementation of Ice Wall or Wall of Stone which would improve gameplay alot in my opinion. ...

 

Another cool new tool would be Wall of Fire.

As much as I'd like to implement at least one of these (Fire Wall is by far the most famous), implementing them is outstandingly problematic imo.

 

I surely don't have an animation fro Ice Wall, while I should be able to do something about Fire Wall (IWD ) and Stone Walls (I think this could be implemented with multiple fake-summons using giant rocks animation...but it could be tricky). Anyway, even if those two are possible, I doubt their implementation would be flawless (e.g. I don't have a "linear & static" projectile for Wall of Fire's AoE).

 

Worst of all, I don't know how the AI would react to them. Perhaps it would tear down Stone Wall's rocks if it considers them opponents, but how would I prevent the AI from wasting spells on these rocks? Fire Wall in particular could be heavily exploited by players (e.g. running in circles to make the poor AI run into the wall multiple times).

 

 

I'd love one of these. How about a (large) circle around the caster like a expanded fireshield, but that doesn't move around?

 

As for wasting spells on it, i don't know.