Acronym trouble.

[Keldor]

OK, the only actual abuse going on here occurred in the post directly above this one.

Wrong and unfair.

G3 (Gibberlings 3) has fairly tolerant moderation habits. We understand that people tend to use informal language. We do not tolerate attacks against individual members.

So what are you going to do about Lynx accusing me of being cowardly and a troll?

[Keldor]

IRv3 beta: the first post was last updated two days ago.

Where does it state this?

The subtitle clearly reinfoces what the post says - it contains the download link.

Yes, but how can the newbie know from looking at that thread, that it's been updated?

Feedback: why would knowing other people's feedback be a prerequisite to giving your own?

It wouldn't be!!!!! I'm telling you that if the newbie can't see any indication that the thread has been updated, he will be inclined to think the following posts are queries, comments about bugs, apologies, promises 'to sort it out later', thanks and congratulations, requests for other tweaks, etc. - just the sort of things that are evident in all other threads. Such posts imply that the download is anything but safe until the newbie has checked through the entire thread - unless it is made clear somewhere that the download has been updated. You think this is clear. I'm a genuine newbie telling you it isn't clear to me. Who knows best what I think is clear - you or me?

 

Known beta issues: both the edit time and the subtitle show how recent the information is. In this case, it would be common curtesy to read all the replies since the last update (to spare them the work of dealing with nplicated reports).

I've only just noticed that edits and their times are recorded on the posts - and this is as a result of this discussion. If a person doesn't even know what thread they need to be reading, how are they going to notice edits - especially when most posts aren't edited?

Pretty good for a semirandom pick. I had the "IR V3" one in mind, but these are apparently perfect too.

Clearly my facts about the number of threads with the same subject title on just the first page of the first 1000 hits, and the huge number of replies that the newbie has to trawl through to synthesise the information to even begin to form conclusions about the subject, went right over your head.

 

As I'm sure you already know, you cannot do that unless you get moderator or administrator privileges.

So why did you suggest I could do it then?

You're putting words in my mouth (again?).

Am I? You said:

Community is not "everyone else", you're also part of it even if you're just using its work as an anonymous coward or trolling.

That's you clearly implying I'm an anonymous coward and a troll.

If you want to know what inspired this combination, search for another acronym, IA or since the search will barf on that: iav6.

Improved Anvil version 6. Your point?

If you insist on a wiki, you can add it somewhere else and it can be linked here.

No I can't! Do you think I'd be asking for one if I could do it myself? Also, how do I, a new member, know what the administrators here will allow? I'm still at the 'trawling through the website trying to understand it' stage. It seems it's only you who thinks I can 'easily' do stuff here.

As we're trying to point out, the forum would work for this purpose too.

We're trying to point out? There are several members here trying to be helpful to me? Your 'help' has been to make sweeping assumptions about what I can do, and what I know, and what I can see on the site, and my ability to find things, coupled with sarcastic remarks like, "Easy?" to imply I was some sort of imbecile to even make my suggestion in the first place.

 

And I am not and cannot be speaking on behalf of the community. What I said was that *you* made it harder for *yourself* to get help with the acronym quest.

I made it harder for myself by posting a suggestion? That makes sense.

[Keldor]

Is this thread about putting up a page of acronyms for those "familiarized with mods and the IE sites"? No it isn't. I'm familiar with many of these sites and I still struggle with many of the acronyms. One reason for this is that members often make their own acronyms up relative only to their own post.

If everyone makes their own acronyms (I don't agree), what would be the point in having a centralised acronym resource then?

I said 'often', not 'always'. They do this because they're lazy e.g. with spell names such as Protection against Normal Missiles. If the thread has had several posts about this spell, then others are likely to pick it up too, especially since they usually use the quote tool. You say you don't agree that this happens. Do you still think this? It's one thing to use an acronym for a game series, or an otherwise well-known game title e.g. KotOR, or a widely used modding tool, but it's another thing entirely to do so for in-game names of things that not all players will use.

Maybe you could just ask what does X or Y mean?

Sure I could; but over and over? Judging by my experiences of member reactions here it wouldn't be long before someone said, 'Google it' - as one did, immediately. I get the impression that you’re inclined to be helpful but clearly the same can’t be said for everyone.

I tried to provide you with the fact that similar things to what you're demanding (wiki) already happened and then vanished. Which is to say, it's not likely of happening again very soon, so doing it the 'hard' way will probably end up being faster.

Firstly, can we clear about the fact that I didn't 'demand' anything? Secondly, I appreciated that you made that point but you also made those irritatingly obvious comments that completely ignored the premise of my suggestion.

Elementary, my dear Watson. Acronym pages were already linked to you.

Were they any good? Not really. Were they complete? Not by a long way. so have they solved the problem? No. I now know where to look but the issue will arise again for someone, poor sod.

As to why there aren't more, it's because nobody deemed them necessary enough to either do them in the first place or maintain them.

The existence of those pages demonstrates at least some desire and need for them. What you can't know is how many potential members have been turned off and surfed elsewhere on account of the esoteric and exclusive culture on these boards. You can't reasonably argue that having tens of acronyms makes learning the art of modding easier.

'Acceptable' in forum terms is a subjective beast. You probably feel overwhelmed and disrespected by some of the statements made by others in this thread, while probably all those others feel you're overreacting. Who's right?

On the question of me being disrespected, I'm unquestionably right! I've explained how it's so, and I am the sole arbiter of what I find disrespectful. I'm learning quickly that this forum seems to be populated by a large number of arrogant, disrespectful, and lazy people who are very complacent about their attitude towards newcomers. I'm not, by any means, a newbie to the internet and I've rarely met a more hostile board anywhere. The only contender - which was actually significantly worse - was English Amiga Board. What I find interesting is that that too was a community of tech-heads. Perhaps it's the sensation of having 'privileged' information in the information age that leads to this arrogance and unwillingness to be helpful to newbies.

And more important, is everyone else likely to change to suit your opinion/needs?

I don't have the least notion that they will! One can't expect anything from a pig but a grunt; if people are pigs, they won't listen to criticism about their atrocious manners.

 

The issue in question never proved to be insurmountable or anything of the like.

Of course it doesn't - from the perspective of the lazy, unthinking mind. In fact, many potential members will be turned off; you just don't know about them. I'm telling you now, straight from the horse's mouth, that I find it very off-putting. The only unusual thing here is that I'm not one to slink away quietly. When people are disrespectful to me or others, I speak up. When I notice a way to solve a problem, I solve it or point out the solution to those who may not realise it. Not everyone who grunts is a pig. Some are just in a bad mood, or caught off guard - and they can smarten their attitude and shape up after a little reminder - as Sixof Spades did. I have a lot of respect for that. The point is that the attitude here is not to bother to help people through this particular problem. Maybe collectively, and subconsciously (or pre-consciously), you see it as some sort of initiation process, a rite of passage that all must negotiate to be welcomed into your hallowed halls.

Rather, I'd say the way of approaching such problems or 'bumps in the road', so to speak, bears more significance.

My way of approaching the problem has been no different from most others': I struggle, I look elsewhere in the thread for clues to the acronym. Many times I get discouraged and frustrated and move to another thread; and the immediate and obvious question of an acronym page came to my mind. I looked for it and didn't find it and posted the suggestion that one is made on the fair assumption that it would help many people. So what's the significance of this, then (since you say you think this bears '"more significance" (than what, you don't say))?

 

That's pretty much what I meant. 4 days might seem like a lot if you are in some kind of hurry. I didn't learn exactly what a BAM was until several months passed, for example. I didn't dare install more than a couple of mods until after several playthroughs, and so on.

Well, that amazes me. You've a heck of a lot of patience. What are you, an elf?

 

Too Long, Didn't Read

Incidentally, don't you think this too is disrespectful? I do, especially when the person who posts it is attacking that particular poster for his views. It's a tacit suggestion that the poster is boring and his comments irrelevant, a dismissal of them.

[PinchIt]

On the question of me being disrespected, I'm unquestionably right! I've explained how it's so, and I am the sole arbiter of what I find disrespectful.

 

This sounds like my mother in law....

 

Don't feed the Troll...

 

Where is temujin, he would have a blast with this.....

[theacefes]

Acronyms...you know what, they are honestly just one of those things that you learn through experience and time being in any online community. There are a lot of threads and tutorials around this site and other IE sites that list them if you're really interested. Honestly, if I'm really in doubt about something modding related, I just search the site or here and typically I find my answer. If not, I just bug one of the other modders here and they are usually happy to help me out.

 

If that sounds a little crude or unhelpful, it's not intended to be that way. But most modders in the community weren't handed knowledge right away. We had to research and find out a lot of stuff on our own. That is one of the downsides of having an unpaid hobby and being members of communities where modders come and go depending on how much free time they have, but on the upside, it made me a better developer. The modding community isn't offering a service to anyone, player or modder; we are here because on some level we like hanging out online and sharing what we made with others.

 

If you ask a question here and you don't think you are getting the answer you need, it's best to walk away from that discussion and try sending an email or private message to one of the moderators here (or myself). If you don't want to do that, try another modding community. If that still doesn't work, then you probably are not taking the information you are given and using it properly.

 

Finally, you keep insisting that the pages you are linked to aren't good enough for some other poor person, or that the threads here are disorganized and thousands of modders will leave in an epic exodus that will render the IE community helpless and then maybe the page will finally finish loading and we can all go home happy. If you *truly* want to help those poor unfortunate members who are wandering around aimlessly bumping into disorganized threads, then do some research on what needs to be done and let a moderator (or me) know what you'd like to do. If it's something that you feel very strongly about and we agree, we might just help you out!

 

Or maybe you should focus on getting your question answered before you try to save the modding world.

 

I don't have EVERY acronym answer, but I put together a few for people who are interested in making NPCs.

 

Clickies

[Jarno Mikkola]

IRv3 beta: the first post was last updated two days ago.

Where does it state this?

In the post... it reads:

This post has been edited by Demivrgvs: Aug 9 2011, 11:39 PM

See, that's actually the automatic sign that the edit has actually happened...

[KIrving]

On the question of me being disrespected, I'm unquestionably right! I've explained how it's so, and I am the sole arbiter of what I find disrespectful. I'm learning quickly that this forum seems to be populated by a large number of arrogant, disrespectful, and lazy people who are very complacent about their attitude towards newcomers.

I've been with this community since its very early days and it has always been friendly and helpful, especially towards newcomers. Your suggestion of arrogance and laziness is untrue and unfair. A number of people have tried to talk with you in this thread and post helpful links and you have behaved dismissively towards them. Personally, I found some of the links posted quite useful and have managed to add a few more definitions to my growing knowledge base.

I have also found that when people ask for information on this forum they get help. What is your specific problem? What acronym's are you having trouble with? Are you using mods in your games and/or are you learning how to mod? Perhaps instead of trying to be the champion of newcomers everywhere you could post your specific acronym problems. Anyone doing a search in this forum will find this thread and who knows maybe it will grow into something more permanent and G3 specific.

 

I'm not, by any means, a newbie to the internet and I've rarely met a more hostile board anywhere.

Really? You have never been to RPGcodex then, or the BioWare boards or *shudder* Taleworlds?

 

@theacefes - Thanks a bunch for your link and your great guides. One of these days I'm going to make an npc.

[theacefes]

@theacefes - Thanks a bunch for your link and your great guides. One of these days I'm going to make an npc. smile.gif

 

You're welcome. If you like those, you'll hopefully really like what I'm coming out with soon.

[CoM_Solaufein]

Grooviness.

[Keldor]

What is your specific problem? What acronym's are you having trouble with? Are you using mods in your games and/or are you learning how to mod? Perhaps instead of trying to be the champion of newcomers everywhere you could post your specific acronym problems. Anyone doing a search in this forum will find this thread and who knows maybe it will grow into something more permanent and G3 specific.

You're right. I was suffering from an 'acronym headache' and just thinking of a succinct solution. Clearly it isn't really needed, I suppose. The links provided, especially the IESDP (what the heck does that stand for? Infinity Engine...) are sufficient, I guess.

 

I'm not, by any means, a newbie to the internet and I've rarely met a more hostile board anywhere.

Really? You have never been to RPGcodex then, or the BioWare boards or *shudder* Taleworlds?

Woah! Yes I have been to the Bioware boards and, okay, they can be unpleasant. Not heard of RPG codex or Taleworlds but I can see that they don't come highly recommended!

[Keldor]

IRv3 beta: the first post was last updated two days ago.

Where does it state this?

In the post... it reads:

This post has been edited by Demivrgvs: Aug 9 2011, 11:39 PM

See, that's actually the automatic sign that the edit has actually happened...

You see my point? No, you don't.

That says that the post has been edited not updated. Edits can be for any number of reasons and usually are. You said this information was clear and in the first post. It's actually very small, on the bottom border of the post, and still doesn't state 'updated'!

 

Now, I've had enough of this conversation with you. You've made your point that I'm the only idiot who has difficulties, and that I should know everything you know, and realise how to trip lightly from thread to thread, and link to link, picking up the information I need like flowers from Bluebell wood. I've got the links now, I've learned what I need to do, thanks for all the negativity to my suggestion.

[Keldor]

Acronyms...you know what, they are honestly just one of those things that you learn through experience and time being in any online community. There are a lot of threads and tutorials around this site and other IE sites that list them if you're really interested. Honestly, if I'm really in doubt about something modding related, I just search the site or here and typically I find my answer. If not, I just bug one of the other modders here and they are usually happy to help me out.

Thank you, theacefes. Thank you for not heranguing me. Thank you for your patience, the link, and the advice.

[Miloch]

I'm learning quickly that this forum seems to be populated by a large number of arrogant, disrespectful, and lazy people who are very complacent about their attitude towards newcomers.

Just lazy people who are complacent in general I think, not toward anything or anyone in particular. The truly aggressively arrogant people are actually quite scarce these days - believe me, the Infinity modding community was a lot more unpleasant several years ago (and I came in only at the tail-end of that unpleasantness - it was even worse before, so I hear). Nowadays, one is lucky to get a *crickets chirping* in response to a suggestion. If I get negative feedback, I think "wow, someone actually responded." As for an IE acronym list - good idea, so go ahead and start one. I started an area list a few years back due to a similar lack, and though it wasn't much to start with, it eventually got pinned and incorporated into the IESDP in some form. You get a heavy use of acronyms in any field - I don't think this one is unique. Actually, gibberlings3 is one of the few (probably the first, if not the only) site to use <acronym> tags in their mod readmes. In theory, all you'd need to do is scan all its mod readmes for those tags to build a sizable acronym list.