"Roll Your Own Beta Pre-Beta Post-Alpha Pioneers"

[Autumn Bard]

I'll state a caveat right off the bat that I don't understand anything about coding so I may be way off in my understanding of what is being said, but I'll add my two ha'pennies with the intention of perhaps adding something of value to the discussion.

 

*raises hand* Unfortunately I see logic loopholes... Forgive me.

 

I question whether it is in character for Aran to have sex with his employer before having a sense of whether he can trust her enough to do so right away. I was under the assumption he's experienced enough to be more cautious about putting himself into a precarious position like that. It's one thing to have sex with a pretty maiden he's been sparking with at an inn, it's quite another to have sex with one's boss. He is the type who sticks to a contract, after all, so if things go poorly, he knows he'll be setting himself up for hell for as long as the contract (of seeming indeterminate length) lasts. For a guy who's been around, and around from all accounts, that is taking a huge risk. I thought having things progress through building flirts (both PIDs and lovetalks) allows a bit of time for Aran to establish enough of a rapport with CHANAME for it to make sense. And time for his attraction to her and lusting after her, to build.

 

It doesn't mesh well with me either the explanation of Aran being shy with the boss after having their sex-soon-after-meeting tryst. He hasn't, in any material I've read anyway, ever played coy. He seemed to be the type of person who values what he has and wouldn't back away from acknowledging it. From the bits of him I've read, he won't pretend to undo what he has done, even if by all the gods he wishes he hadn't done it. Ignore it, attempt to drink it away, banish it from his thoughts, sure. But him being blushy from shyness after consummation, especially without the emotional intimacy, seems out of character for him. From my understanding of his character. So plainly stated, it doesn't make sense to me for him to 'be unaware' of their intimacy level in his interactions with CHARNAME.

 

These are only my views and feelings about Aran though. I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone nor am I attempting to be a spoilsport for those who want to have their PC have sex with Aran earlier than the lovetalks and flirts would normally allow. Again, I don't understand coding so maybe my following suggestion would be way off, but perhaps rather than getting rid of the tracking intimacy level thingie (which seems to work for those who are taking it slower) to allow for the early sex path, maybe change content available to the PC. Meaning: instead of messing around with what is already established in the mod regarding tracking and all of that, perhaps the Aran-initiated and PID flirts can be set to correspond with the intimacy level regardless of where the lovetalks stand but with some added lighter flirts. So, yes, a person would miss out on some of the experience of slowly establishing a relationship with Aran, but that is the logical cause-effect reaction to having an early roll in the hay. I guess that would also have to include altering aspects within the lovetalks where he behaves as if they haven't had sex or is acting shy (which would be coy if they have had sex already) - if what I'm saying about his personality makes sense.

 

But that begs the question: is it worth going through all of that trouble to rewrite and edit so much stuff to allow for a contingency which is already accounted for, only a little slower?

 

While it's pretty cool you allow for a difference between the establishing of physical vs emotional intimacy, it comes at the cost of the confusion of what exactly would be appropriate for the early-sex relationship. My suggestion, as always, is to do what you feel fits Aran best and what is do-able and still fun for you.

 

The other issue which springs to mind is how Aran is written to have a particular conflict regarding romancing the PC. I'm going to avoid spoilers here so I may sound a bit vague, and maybe even ludicrous, so bear with me. I don't see how to get it to work as penned. If he has sex with the PC before knowing she is a Baalspawn and before he sees she is as powerful as she is, then, I would think, he would react a bit different than he would finding it out about her in tandem with their intimacy. In one instance, he's already had sex with her from the perspective of her being a pretty “normal†type of person – especially if they have sex the day they meet. In the other instance, he finds out about her as they go. The latter allows time for the concerns to build and grow, especially along with the emotional intimacy. The former makes him have already crossed part of the hurdle. It seems to me there will be a disconnect between the mod as you have thought it out, planed, and built the conflict story-wise if you allow for too much player agency.

 

Again, that is only how I see it based on what I understood about your post, cmorgan. You're a fantastic writer and I know whatever you decide it'll be delicious. Err... I meant it'll be a blast to play.

 

One more thing, I also take a long time to play so hundreds of randomized flirts that take hours upon hours to unfold is just unbelievably awesome. One could even say ridiculously awesome.

[Aeryn]

I apologize ahead of time if I misunderstood something - I read most but skimmed parts of your post because I'm really tired, and I very well could have missed something - but I wanted to say a few things before I forget them.

 

I agree that logically Aran is probably a man who'd be cautious about sleeping with his employer, but logic tends to take a backseat to lust. The average man, hell even the extraordinary man is not always able to put the brakes on if an attractive and powerful woman is cranking up the heat.

 

Also, I don't presume to know cmorgan's mind, but I didn't interpret "shy" as "bashful," but rather as standoffish due to an unfamiliarity with such affectionate gestures from this relative stranger whom he just happens to have seen naked. I can say with absolute certainty that situations like that do happen in real relationships - the behavior behind closed doors does not dictate the public behavior (or even the semi-private behavior), and someone who doesn't know the boundaries or expectations of their partner is not going to know how to react/respond to those things.

 

None of that to say either of us is wrong or right, just adding a bit of personal perspective.

[piperb]

-My variables were a little different than Aeryn's:

 

Before:

c-aranpcflirtstart=1; c-aransex=0; c-aranrom=1; c-aranfight=0; c-aranintimate=1; c-arankisses=1

 

After they shared everything:

c-aranpcflirtstart=1; c-aransex=1; c-aranrom=1; c-aranfight=0; c-aranintimate=4; c-arankisses=1

 

Wrote these down from a previous game after they shared everything:

c-aranpcflirtstart=2; c-aransex=1; c-aranrom=2; c-aranfight=0; c-aranintimate=3; c-arankisses=5

 

In my games it didn't matter whether you chose the "chaste" route or not - the flirts stopped if not using the default Aran configuration. Even in past games where the variables did set, when something else happened between them it would revert the variables to a previous relationship status. Which puts Aran not responding to the PC like you would expect in an involved relationship. How many men actually forget doing *everything* with a woman they like...repeatedly?

 

A side note on the flirting, motive doesn't always equal action. Some women just like to flirt, but never intend to follow thru-for whatever reason. While others may have a mild interest in flirting, but will do it for the ultimate goal, to bed him. Either way, she may fall for him in the process.

 

And just throwing a few other thoughts out: If you don't want to go on flirt count alone, one possibility is keeping a count of the num of times things happen. If the PC allows Aran to kiss her once or twice and no touching, it's a fair bet things aren't going to progress quickly. But, if the PC is kissing him at every opportunity, playing touchie-feely, etc...well, you get the point - increment instead of set the variables. But, that would mean a lot more work for you. Another possibility is use the flirt count as a means to gauge when Aran asks the PC what she prefers, (or once the actual romance starts he asks). Like B done with the "peaches" talk with Gavin. And/or put a submenu in the PID to manage the speed at which the relationship progresses. Giving the PC the option to speed things up or slow them down in addition to cutting the romance off and/or back on.

 

And I have to agree with Autumn Bard and Aeryn. It doesn't seem to fit Aran for him to be acting shy and withdrawn. He comes across as one who is very experienced and goes after what he wants, IMO. Living with the consequences of those choices, whatever they may be. "I like taking chances" specifically comes to mind.

[Autumn Bard]

@Aeryn: there is no need to apologize at all. I'm happy to have things brought to light. They were only what I thought and felt as I read the posts. I'm tired too so this may come out garbled.

 

I think, as you pointed out, the fact she is powerful matters. However, from my interpretation, it would be more of a cause for caution for him than a green light. Regardless of which it is for him as a character though, the question is would he even know she is powerful at that point? I haven't installed the mod because I have no aptitude for moding and can't understand the code and all of that so I would be rather useless with helping with the beta, so I don't know what the introductory talk is between Aran and the PC. I assume he doesn't see her in combat against tougher foes, nor hears she is a Baalspawn until later in their acquaintance. So other than the appeal of her being the leader of a rag-tag band of followers, he doesn't know anything about her having power. Would that be enough for him to be driven beyond his caution into acting on his desires if he did indeed respond to being propositioned by a powerful woman who is also his boss? I don't know. Maybe he would. It was just something to consider.

 

I fully agree public behaviour is different than private behaviour. The part which felt off to me was the “shy” behaviour. Aran seems to be the type of person who, while he would not directly boast about his conquest – so to speak – would definitely be past the uncertainty. I thought, based on what I've read of the various posted dialogues, he was a bit hesitant to get involved with the PC for various reasons until he figured things out for himself a bit. That aspect kinda contradicts his having sex with CHANAME earlier than his deciding it was something he had made up his mind to pursue. If that is true, than the mod needs to accommodate his indeed having sex with the PC early. Of course, I could have misinterpreted what I've read and I'm not making sense.

 

I'm glad to talk this stuff over Aeryn. Thanks!

 

*edit* Yeah, what piperb said!

[Aeryn]

PC has to do more than simply proposition Aran to get him in the sack early on. Generally speaking, it feels more like a one thing leading to another sort of deal, where maybe neither he nor the PC was really planning on letting things progress that far but they both gave in. If it was as easy as "Hey, Aran, we just met fifteen seconds ago, but we should totally make babies right now!!1" then yes, it would be odd for him to agree to it. But as it stands, it feels natural enough to me for players who'd choose that route.

 

I probably shouldn't have used the word powerful - I meant it in a more mundane sense, as in assertive/aggressive/persuasive in the romance department, not necessarily meaning her prowess or divine taint or any of that. Meaning, she's the type to go after him pretty hard, and he's not exactly resistant to her faster-than-average advances.

 

About shyness - I don't think blushing/fumbling/awkwardness would be right for Aran because it's just not him. I do think reluctance/insecurity/hesitation would be normal for him (and almost any other human being) with a woman he's just met and might not even know the eye color of, even if they've slept together. All I really should have said is that if the sex happens super early in the romance, Aran's flirts should reflect the hesitation of an early romance and not sudden affection when affection hasn't even had a chance to develop. And...that's probably not any clearer than what I've already said...

[Autumn Bard]

I assumed it was a 'one thing leading to another' kinda deal rather than, say, PC tackling him with intent on the table right after the contract was signed and shook on. Makes me giggle thinking of it though. Poor sod.

 

As I was attempting to convey, it really doesn't matter what feels more “right” to me about Aran. If it works for cmorgan and the players are happy with it, that's all that matters when it comes down to it. The only concern is the mod reflects that having happened between them in a way appropriate to Aran.

 

I did interpret the word powerful as in 'AD&D higher level character' and 'child of a dead god' powerful. Probably because of that being part of Aran's inner conflict. Completely my mistake, sorry about that. So the only potential sticking point is if he would let it come to that with his employer. I don't doubt for one second he'd go along with it with a woman he was attracted to who was not his boss. In fact, if he didn't, I'd wonder if he was comin' down with something. But if it works, great! It makes for an interesting branch of the story as well.

 

The reason I'm a bit stuck on the shy issue is because some of the lovetalks and early flirts have an inherent aspect to them which have Aran behave in a shy/unsure/hasn't-gotten-to-know-her-intimately-yet kind of way. An important aspect of that is without it having happened between them, he wouldn't off-hand know if it ever will, so there is the potential rejection which he wrestles with.

 

I wasn't clear in my last post that I agree with you there would be awkwardness and some reluctance and hesitation between them due to the fact of them only beginning to get to know each other and the discomfiture of having been sexually intimate without having a basis of understanding each other in other ways. I just feel it would play out differently than it does in the talks as written. Mind you, I read those from the forum posts and not in-game so there may be changes in there I'm not aware of. So, to sum up: to quote Aeryn: ...if the sex happens super early in the romance, Aran's flirts should reflect the hesitation of an early romance and not sudden affection when affection hasn't even had a chance to develop. is perfectly stated.

[cmorgan]

[synopsis - skip the rest of this post if you are not interested in long complicated wordy talkity-talk talk]

What I am hearing folks say is that for an early flirter, PID choices could be improved not by removing the influence of intimacy for the first levels, but by fine-tuning the choices to match both.

 

So,

c-aransex=0 flirtstart=0 => earlyflirt

c-aransex=1 flirtstart=0 => earlyflirt

c-aransex=2 flirtstart=0 => lightweight

c-aransex=3 flirtstart=0 => lightweight

c-aransex=4 flirtstart=0 => NEW (unsure but also possibly very handsy - trying to figure out the status)

c-aransex=0 flirtstart=1 => lightweight

c-aransex=1 flirtstart=1 => lightweight

c-aransex=2 flirtstart=1 => lightweight

c-aransex=3 flirtstart=1 => lightweight (moves to heavy)

c-aransex=4 flirtstart=1 => heavy

c-aransex=0 flirtstart=2 << can't happen; if it does, it is a bug... he has to at least kiss her, dammit

c-aransex=1,2 flirtstart=2 => heavy

c-aransex=3,4 flirtstart=2 => mature

 

[/synopsis]

 

 

@piperb - I am hoping this is a byproduct of script evaluation, and that the next update handles that - the code straightforward, so it must be that the blocks in question never evaluate. I have placed them at the top of the stack, and am searching for something that would block evaluation. It should be

I S

0 <-> 0 = no change

1 <-> 0 = S+1

1 <-> 1 = no change

2 <-> 1 = S+1

etc.

I'll take a look - the only things that should not be firing due to a class change are the Temple comments and I think the availablilty of Temple flirting in PID. There should be no relation between class and that sort of conten, so flirting should be available from PID for all classes.

 

@everyone - Cool feedback - and I'm taking a look to see if it would be wiser to institute a "allow the jump to early flirts" thing that takes both characterization and actions into account. Unfortunately for me, it probably is best if I go Autumn Bard's route and adjust some pathways on Lovetalks as a result, but when it comes down to it, the most player fun is enabled when the character is consistent... so that it is a breath of spice when he does something completely odd!

 

On the blushing = shyness thing - I left it ambiguous because some players like to play slow, gradual romances, and they could interpret his advances as uncustomarily shy.

{male thinking: She is special, more than just a roll in the hay. Now how in god's name do I handle that? I want to take my chance, but is the right play to go on the offensive, or play it cool? Blast... so *this* is what happens when raw lust meets actual emotional engagement. I wish I had never met her. But I am glad I met her.}

 

In the love talks and at several other places, he suddenly blushes or retreats, not because he is physically embarrased - heck, he would hop into bed right away - but because his developing feelings make him unsure, evasive, or just plain scared. If you run through enough of the encounters, he even has the classic "hey, wait a minute - is this just bedding, or does this mean something more?" (suprisingly effective, I think, because it is so out-of-the-regular-aran that it telegraphs he really is interested in more than the physical side of things).

 

All this talk on my point is pretty much useless, though. The fun with code and language is all in service of the playability. Getting to the actual game coding, I think if the feedback is seeing a disconnect large enough to trip on ( big concern for ESL folks, especially - when is "a cigar is just a cigar" subtlety leaving players lost) the PID stuff will not require a rewrite, just a finer grained approach in the PID; a minor addition on the flirt end might be fun, if I can do it reasonably quickly.

 

For sthe specifics I am thinking about, see the synopsis at the top of the post.

 

(For the dudes, I am aware that the thread is very romance-centered - as it is right now, the male PC side is in great shape and completable. The tricky bits are all dealing with the female romance side, because, as we dudes know from real life, friendship is great, but you start adding wld stuff in there, and things get complicated *very* quickly... I still have a good bit of content to go in, but I want to make sure the female romance side is playable with current content before adding on the quest line and the ToB additional friendtalks, etc.)

[berelinde]

The encounter with Melcer and friends had me giggling. My hero!

 

Oh, and the Bodhi business went fine. Scripts worked and everything.

 

And another edit: Aran initiated dialogue outside Suldanessellar, but nothing came up but PID. No stutter, so no script loops... unless...

 

Does he have a PartyRested() banter firing anywhere? That would not produce a stutter but if it misfired, it would cause Aran's PID menu to pop up.

[cmorgan]

The encounter with Melcer and friends had me giggling. My hero!

 

Oh, and the Bodhi business went fine. Scripts worked and everything.

Great - that one is lodgged and confirmed fixed with 3 playthroughs and two independent outside playthroughs, then.

 

And another edit: Aran initiated dialogue outside Suldanessellar, but nothing came up but PID. No stutter, so no script loops... unless...

 

Does he have a PartyRested() banter firing anywhere? That would not produce a stutter but if it misfired, it would cause Aran's PID menu to pop up.

 

Yes, he does - and it is right after Underdark.

 

Perhaps I should script this differently...

/* On waking banter, after Underdark : bcs */ 

IF
PartyRested()
InParty(Myself)
Global("c-aranwakeup","LOCALS",0)
Global("Chapter","GLOBAL",6)
!Global("c-aranspar","GLOBAL",7)
CombatCounter(0)
!StateCheck(Myself,CD_STATE_NOTVALID)
InMyArea(Player1)
!StateCheck(Player1,CD_STATE_NOTVALID)
OR(27)
	AreaCheck("AR0085")
	AreaCheck("AR1100")
	AreaCheck("AR1101")
	AreaCheck("AR1102")
	AreaCheck("AR1104")
	AreaCheck("AR1105")
	AreaCheck("AR1106")
	AreaCheck("AR1107")
	AreaCheck("AR1200")
	AreaCheck("AR1204")
	AreaCheck("AR1300")
	AreaCheck("AR1304")
	AreaCheck("AR1400")
	AreaCheck("AR1404")
	AreaCheck("AR1700")
	AreaCheck("AR1800")
	AreaCheck("AR1900")
	AreaCheck("AR1901")
	AreaCheck("AR1902")
	AreaCheck("AR1904")
	AreaCheck("AR1905")
	AreaCheck("AR2500")
	AreaCheck("AR2600")
	AreaCheck("AR2602")
	AreaCheck("AR2603")
	AreaCheck("AR2700")
	AreaCheck("AR2800")
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetGlobal("c-aranwakeup","GLOBAL",1)
SetGlobalTimer("c-aransmalltalk","GLOBAL",300)
PlaySong(0)
PlaySound("c-arnfti")
StartDialogNoSet(Player1)
END

[berelinde]

You have c-aranwakeup as a LOCALS trigger and set it as a GLOBAL action.

 

Global("c-aranwakeup","LOCALS",0)

SetGlobal("c-aranwakeup","GLOBAL",1)

[cmorgan]

Heh! The oldies but goodies.

[piperb]

[synopsis - skip the rest of this post if you are not interested in long complicated wordy talkity-talk talk]

What I am hearing folks say is that for an early flirter, PID choices could be improved not by removing the influence of intimacy for the first levels, but by fine-tuning the choices to match both.

 

 

Edit: Minus the flirt option disappearing before and the Oghma banter, most things seem to be running fine this game. Flirts changed as the flirt count increased. Just got the goaded talk before my last save. Also, the xmod thingy banters have appeared already and they are very good. (Went back to a previous save and didn't dual classs him and they haven't *shared everything*, so the flirt option is still there.)

[berelinde]

Er... is there a Hell interjection? I'll keep the playing going if I can, but I'm having a heck of a time because I fell and hurt my shoulder to the point where my right arm is completely useless. And forget searching through that D. Impossible.

 

This is about the end of the line for me testing the romance, anyway. I was building a good save for Gavin and Keldorn ToB testing, so from here on out, I'm going to bring Aran but no romance. Since future versions will require new games, I'll just keep playing version 20111026 berelinde a60f224 Beta_1.

[cmorgan]

There is, but it is not romance-related - thank you so much, Berelinde! I appreciate the help.

[berelinde]

I meant the bit every other NPC says when they find out they're in hell. From Gavin:

/* Hell */ 

INTERJECT PLAYER1 25 BGavHELL 
== ~B!GavJ~ IF ~InParty("B!Gavin2") InMyArea("B!Gavin2") !StateCheck("B!Gavin2",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~What place is this? And that odd lurch...~ 
END 
IF ~!Global("B!GavRA","GLOBAL",2)~ THEN EXTERN ~B!GavJ~ hell1 
IF ~Global("B!GavRA","GLOBAL",2)~ THEN EXTERN ~B!GavJ~ hell2 

APPEND ~B!GavJ~ 

IF ~~ hell1 
SAY ~When I said I'd follow you to the hells and back, I never expected to be taken so literally! Well, here we are, so let's see what we can do about getting out.~ 
COPY_TRANS PLAYER1 25 
END 

IF ~~ hell2 
SAY ~I always knew I'd follow you to the hells and back, so now it's time to put that oath to the test. We're here and we're together. We *will* find a way.~ 
COPY_TRANS PLAYER1 25 
END 
END

 

But it reminded me that I never did that second hell interjection, the one where every NPC but Gavin says "You die first!"