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IR's Large Shields


Salk

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Cool, at the long last we're having heated debates once again! :D

Haha, indeed :D

 

Between small and medium, thief usability imo is the only thing that would make a small shield into something valuable - similar how warriors would prefer bastard swords over shorts.

I think the choice between small and medium should be more similar to a warrior choosing between a long sword and a bastard sword - that's not wholly clear cut. I envision the small shield as a "duellist" shield, it gives 1 AC against everything, without any penalty. If you're going into melee, and wanted to land hits, that's what I'd use. Medium shield is more of a go-between, and the Large is all-out tanking.

 

Example: in BG1, when going 1vs1 with Shar-Teel I'd use a small shield, against random Hobgoblin packs a medium shield, and against Kobold hordes (with Commando support) I'd use a large shield.

 

Could experimenting with better AC against certain attacks (f.e slashing) be something to be considered? :hmm:

 

EDIT: A wacky example: giving a buckler +1 vs Slashing (fast, and easy to parry). It would be better than small shield in certain specific melee situations, but worse against missiles. I'm not actually proposing this, but could something like this even be done?

[and note that this made up example would make the buckler the "duellist" shield]

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Cool, at the long last we're having heated debates once again! :D
Haha, indeed :D
Eh eh, I missed these debates too! It helped that I had really nothing to do at work this evening! :D

 

I suppose I was a bit too hasty indeed with returning to vanilla stats for bucklers/smalls.
Eh eh, I'm glad my reasonings made sense. :)

 

Towers, ideally, should have DEX penalty (which is what offsets their +4 AC in PnP), but in order to not override armors' penalty it would have to be a fixed value, rather than percentage.
It's a rather tricky hindrance because it's actually not a hindrance at all if the large shields are equipped by heavily armored characters who probably already have low DEX...so it would pratically just force large shields to be used by them and not by lightly armored high DEX warriors. It makes sense, but it's not necessarily needed imo, and you do remember how hard it was to make players accept heavy armor's DEX penalties, don't you? Well, I think this would be even more difficult! :D

 

In the end I feel rather comfortable with the current solution. Even if I agree -2 thac0 penalty is a low price to pay for +2 AC (plus 1 vs missiles), I also think it's probably enough to keep them in check and not get overused or OP (I don't think Salk is the only one out there thinking -2 thac0 penalty is too much).

 

Between small and medium, thief usability imo is the only thing that would make a small shield into something valuable - similar how warriors would prefer bastard swords over shorts.
I think the choice between small and medium should be more similar to a warrior choosing between a long sword and a bastard sword - that's not wholly clear cut. I envision the small shield as a "duellist" shield, it gives 1 AC against everything, without any penalty. If you're going into melee, and wanted to land hits, that's what I'd use. Medium shield is more of a go-between, and the Large is all-out tanking.
You (Ardanis) made a great example, but Dakk's "adjustment" to it is even more close to what I have in mind. As of now I do see the choice between a small or a medium shield similar to that between a long sword or a bastard sword. On the other hand, choosing between a buckler and a small/medium shield could be seen as choosing between a dagger/short sword and a long/bastard sword (your example).

 

With that in mind, I think small/medium shields are almost fine, but I do still believe bucklers are really underwhelming even for those classes who should care about them (aka rogues). Unless we're speaking of a magical buckler with an outstanding feature (e.g Reflection Shield), I really don't see how a thief would ever prefer a buckler over a second weapon (dual-wielders) or single weapon style (which offer an increased critical multiplier for deadly backstabs, a good +2 AC bonus and leave the off hand free - allowing the character to quickly switch on ranged weapons such as a short bow). Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea of what could be done to make bucklers more appealing, even less for characters which can actually wield heavier shields. That's why I wouldn't let rogues - except Skalds perhaps - use small shields, who would ever use these poor bucklers then?!?

 

Btw, did we decide to abandon the shield bash idea completely?
Yes, unless you have found out a way to implement them without problems! :(

 

Could experimenting with better AC against certain attacks (f.e slashing) be something to be considered? :hmm:

 

EDIT: A wacky example: giving a buckler +1 vs Slashing (fast, and easy to parry). It would be better than small shield in certain specific melee situations, but worse against missiles. I'm not actually proposing this, but could something like this even be done?

[and note that this made up example would make the buckler the "duellist" shield]

It's an interesting suggestion, but why would a buckler offer more protection vs a long sword than a bigger shield? The only answer I could imagine is: "because the wielder can react faster and parry". But's that's tied to the wielder's skill more than the shield's effectiveness itself imo (aka a Duelist could defend himself and parry better with a buckler than a medium shield, but a less skilled warrior would surely be much more safe using a bigger shield!). No? Mmm...
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Btw, did we decide to abandon the shield bash idea completely?
Yes, unless you have found out a way to implement them without problems! :(
Hm, do you remember what those were?

 

I know, I should probably have been busy with down-to-earth matters like solving compatibility problems with BGT and 1PP, but a soul needs to fly, so here is the test code.

 

In short - small and medium shields receive new ability header, which doesn't expire after having been used.

 

For smalls the effect is instant, deals 1d4+ench damage and stuns for 3 sec (save vs death).

For mediums - "casting speed" 2, 1d6+ench of damage, stun for 1 sec (no save) and unconsciousness for 1 round (save vs death).

Saves are made at -1 penalty per six character levels.

 

Due to alpha state it obviously doesn't have a number of details coded - like ToBEx features, interaction with PFMW spells, AI support, etc. but you can get an idea of how it would work.

 

 

Due to upload limit, I can't add Weidu to archive, you'll have to make yourself.

shield_bash.rar

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No interest at all? Well then...

 

Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea of what could be done to make bucklers more appealing, even less for characters which can actually wield heavier shields. That's why I wouldn't let rogues - except Skalds perhaps - use small shields, who would ever use these poor bucklers then?!?
Normally, you can't allow Skalds to use SS without letting unkitted bards to as well. And since bards can use medium weapons/armor, imo they should be allowed the same in shield department. Which is where bucklers - not impairing spellcasting - may compete with small shields.
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No interest at all? Well then...
Sorry I wanted to reply sooner but got no time! :( Btw, my doubt is that you're actually suggesting to give shields an infinite charge "bash" ability which doesn't require a hit roll, and probably doesn't correctly messes with either spell protections or PfMW-like effects. Am I wrong?

 

Normally, you can't allow Skalds to use SS without letting unkitted bards to as well. And since bards can use medium weapons/armor, imo they should be allowed the same in shield department. Which is where bucklers - not impairing spellcasting - may compete with small shields.
I thought having bucklers not affect spellcasting was discarded back then for some reason...was it simply a matter of "players not liking it"? If you ask me, making bucklers the only shield type with no penalties on arcane spellcasting is a kinda good idea (in fact I suggested I suggested it ages ago :D ).

 

On a side note, the same could be said about bucklers and stealh skills imo. Fighter-thieves should't be able to move silently so easily regardless of shield size/weight.

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Btw, my doubt is that you're actually suggesting to give shields an infinite charge "bash" ability which doesn't require a hit roll, and probably doesn't correctly messes with either spell protections or PfMW-like effects. Am I wrong?
The to-hit roll is probably not so much required when you slam several square feet of wood into something. Also, incurring AC penalty until the next round comes (not coded yet) imo should balance it out - you'd simply turn the shield into a weapon for one round.

 

Spell protections are ignored due to power level of 0. PFMW can be accounted for as well - although detecting shield's enchantment is slightly more troublesome than weapon's, because it is only description and AC bonus that matter, not the 0x60 ITM's field.

 

Invisibility iirc can be overcome with ToBEx flags.

 

Not tested yet, but with ToBEx AI can be taught to bash too. If David will like it, that is.

 

I thought having bucklers not affect spellcasting was discarded back then for some reason...was it simply a matter of "players not liking it"? If you ask me, making bucklers the only shield type with no penalties on arcane spellcasting is a kinda good idea (in fact I suggested I suggested it ages ago :D ).
I remember. But in PnP bucklers don't prevent from equipping a weapon in offhand, meaning near non-existent encumbrance, so the only possibility of implementing it in IE seems to be no restriction of casting/thieving.

 

On a side note, the same could be said about bucklers and stealh skills imo. Fighter-thieves should't be able to move silently so easily regardless of shield size/weight.
Small - 20%, Medium - 40%, Tower - 80%?

 

the interest is definitely there.
:)
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Maybe it was discussed before, but maybe some damage absorption from projectiles should be added to shields? Like, 20-30-40%/small-medium-large? And even maybe adding some chance to resist interruptions for fighter/mages?

 

Not that realistic, but should (in theory) prevent some stupid situations like demon knights getting swarmed by an army of halfling slingers etc.

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