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IR v4 - list of changes over v3


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I think the standard behaviour of rods should be that they are activated from the quick item slots like wands. It doesn't seem like rods are intended to function as a weapon type: the majority of them cannot be equipped as weapons. So, it doesn't seem like we could reasonably extrapolate weapon characteristics from their shared qualities.
I just quoted PnP where it says certain rods can be wielded as clubs or light maces, and both AD&D and 3E description of rods clearly indicate a size which excludes staves. That being said, I do agree that they are not supposed to be weapons in the first place.

 

In 4th edition, the Rod of Smiting is a rod that can also be wielded as a mace. I think the concept is that it's a unique rod whose special property is that it can be wielded as a weapon.
Mind you the Rod of Smiting existed since AD&D. In PnP it can be used as a weapon but it consumes charges when used to slay a golem. Furthermore it also causes triple damage against extraplanar creatures, draining one charge in the process.

 

I'd prefer that the Rod of Terror be changed to function like the other rods so this uniqueness is highlighted.
The Rod of Terror do exists within AD&D. It's not much different from BG implementation, though its enchantment level is +2. I do thought about making it work as other rods, but a fear effect is already used by both the Rod of Lordly Might and the Wand of Fear. Edited by Demivrgvs
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Any chance you could be convinced to change the De'Arnise axe to +3 or add a +3 axe somewhere later in the game?

 

Axes and morningstars are the only weapon classes where when you have completed all SoA content you likely won't have a weapon above an enchantment of +2. Even katanas are easier to find, at least you can get Celestial Fury before moving on to ToB content. Azureedge requires either being a paladin or 20 reputation, which isn't very probable if you decide to include Korgan in the party.

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Any chance you could be convinced to change the De'Arnise axe to +3 or add a +3 axe somewhere later in the game?

 

Axes and morningstars are the only weapon classes where when you have completed all SoA content you likely won't have a weapon above an enchantment of +2. Even katanas are easier to find, at least you can get Celestial Fury before moving on to ToB content. Azureedge requires either being a paladin or 20 reputation, which isn't very probable if you decide to include Korgan in the party.

I don't think that is very important. There are so few enemies which require a +3 weapon in SoA- high level demons/devils, Greater Mummies and 1 Demilich. Considering you won't be meeting demons soon (at least until you aquire proficiencies in another weapon), that you'll probably blast mummies with magic and Demilich can't be hurt by +3 it really doesn't matter. Morningstars share proficiency with maces, and you can buy a +3/+4 - Mace of Disruption.

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Don't forget Iron Golems and Adamantite Golems, one of which guards the axe in the keep.

 

It's just kinda annoying, is all. To get to the Axe of Unyielding, you have to fight trough a bunch of high level demons, who require the axe to hit. I'd rather remove the axe from the minotaur, add it in the drow shop in Ust'Natha, remove the Psion's Blade from the drow shop and add it to the Githyanki Captain in the same floor as the minotaur. Kind of makes sense imo.

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Any chance you could be convinced to change the De'Arnise axe to +3 or add a +3 axe somewhere later in the game?

 

Axes and morningstars are the only weapon classes where when you have completed all SoA content you likely won't have a weapon above an enchantment of +2. Even katanas are easier to find, at least you can get Celestial Fury before moving on to ToB content. Azureedge requires either being a paladin or 20 reputation, which isn't very probable if you decide to include Korgan in the party.

As Kreso says I'd limit the "issue" to axes, because morningstars share the weapon type with maces, and between the MoD +3/+4 and Skullcrusher +3 you should be fine.

 

When I was working on the currently pathetic BGEE Golden Axe, I thought about raising the enchantment level of the two classic SoA axes, Frostreaver and Stonefire, while using the new BGEE filename for a low level axe. That being said, for SoA they are actually fine imo, and +3 enchanted 1-handed weapons within IR generally aren't available before the Underdark (aka a Stonefire +3 would not be fine for De'Arnise quest but to a post-Spellhold one). Making the Axe of the Unyielding available slighty earlier might be a better solution.

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I'd rather remove the axe from the minotaur, add it in the drow shop in Ust'Natha, remove the Psion's Blade from the drow shop and add it to the Githyanki Captain in the same floor as the minotaur. Kind of makes sense imo.

+1. You get plenty of +3/+4 Two-handed swords anyway, and Psion's blade is indeed tailored for Githyanki.

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I'd rather remove the axe from the minotaur, add it in the drow shop in Ust'Natha, remove the Psion's Blade from the drow shop and add it to the Githyanki Captain in the same floor as the minotaur. Kind of makes sense imo.
+1. You get plenty of +3/+4 Two-handed swords anyway, and Psion's blade is indeed tailored for Githyanki.
While I'm favourable to move the Axe of the Unyelding slightly earlier, the Psion's Blade needs to remain where it is imo. We moved it there because there's no point in having an anti-mind flayer weapon and getting it after the Underdark. While I agree it could suit a Githyanki in terms of role, it does not lore-wise, and I prefer it to not come as a "free" loot. Right now both Psion's Blade and Mirror Shield (aka vanilla's Shield of Balduran Cheese) are really convenient but extremely expensive items. This way, players who consider the Illithid City and/or Beholder's Lair too hard can make the choice of spending a fortune to make their life easier, but if those items were granted as loot we would just have convenient items which make the game easier for everyone. Don't you agree? Edited by Demivrgvs
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You should give those drow shops some guards then imo and make them impossible to steal from like the adventurer's mart. Right now they're all easily stealable and I seriously don't think a drow out of all beings on Toril would be gullible enough to trust his fellow citizens let alone foreign visitors not to steal from him if given the chance.

 

As it is all equipment put on those drow are essentially free if you have a party member with pickpocket.

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Psion's blade isn't exclusive in it's use - it's very convinient to have a "mind shield" even in ToB (makes you rather hard to disable, and is amazing on Sarevok, who doesn't need any damage/on hit effects since he has Deathbringer assault). I'm with April's suggestion here. By Underdark, you'll have at least two +3 two-handed swords, and having the first +3 axe in level 4 of WK is indeed late....it's not like it's needed, but I would like a +3 axe, if for nothing than for Korgan.

In addition, Psion's Blade can be aquired at the same time as Greenstone Amulet, with same effects.

 

This way, players who consider the Illithid City and/or Beholder's Lair too hard can make the choice of spending a fortune to make their life easier, but if those items were granted as loot we would just have convenient items which make the game easier for everyone. Don't you agree?

I wouldn't compare the danger of Beholders to those of Ilithid, tbh. I do buy Psion's just for the rest of the game, but it's not like it's needed for Ilithid - they can't remove Chaotic Commands, which you'll probably have plenty of here. Mirror shield in my install simply gets taken away by telekinesis, so I find it much overpriced for Gaze reflection effect. Psion's blade is of much more use in WK and ToB than Ilithid lair, and remains useful for the whole game.

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You should give those drow shops some guards then imo and make them impossible to steal from like the adventurer's mart. Right now they're all easily stealable and I seriously don't think a drow out of all beings on Toril would be gullible enough to trust his fellow citizens let alone foreign visitors not to steal from him if given the chance.

 

As it is all equipment put on those drow are essentially free if you have a party member with pickpocket.

I was not aware of this until recently, but thanks for reminding me this. I do agree with you. Not to mention that even assuming that stealing such valuable items from a drow merchant is possible, he would probably have the thief hunt down till the end of the world.

 

@Arda, take notice, Store Revisions need to make almost impossible, if not completely impossible, to steal from drows.

 

@Kreso, I'm getting old and I guess the version of Psion's Blade currently available to players isn't the same of my current build. Does it still grant full Mind Shield and no Mindbreaking on hit effect?

Edited by Demivrgvs
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@Kreso, I'm getting old and I guess the version of Psion's Blade currently available to players isn't the same of my current build. Does it still grant full Mind Shield and no Mindbreaking on hit effect?

Full mind shield - charm, confusion, stun, fear, feeblemind, domination, hold, sleep, psionics. No "Mindbreaking" in it.

 

P.S.

Agree on Drow. You would never, ever, steal Psion's Blade from there.

 

P.P.S.

I checked via NI. It has a 15% per hit to cause DVMINDBR.spl. However, the .spl file is nowhere to be found.

Edited by kreso
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I wouldn't compare the danger of Beholders to those of Ilithid, tbh. I do buy Psion's just for the rest of the game, but it's not like it's needed for Ilithid - they can't remove Chaotic Commands, which you'll probably have plenty of here. Mirror shield in my install simply gets taken away by telekinesis, so I find it much overpriced for Gaze reflection effect.
I think there was a console command to override the beholder theft behavior. It was added to counter those items in their vanilla incarnation, but with IR they should be less of an issue for beholder AI.

 

Arda, take notice
Yeah, point well taken.

 

Axe of Unyielding - i see no problem with moving it to Ribald's Ch.6 stock.

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Since the new KR is out and Arda is back I'll try to update this topic asap because the new IR might be ready anytime soon now and I don't want to have non-documented changes when it's out.

 

Arda sneaked into his components quite a few things we discussed in private for like 2 seconds (I and Arda tend to pretty much think the same way at the the same time). Generally I prefer to discuss such things in public before implementing them, especially because I tend to have daring ideas that scare myself. :D Anyway, let's see what we have...

 

Weapons changes

It all started from the idea of making short bows allow more "mobility" than long bows (Dragon Dogma style if anyone has played that game), while pointing out that xbows have uber fast "point and click first shot" but do have a unpractical reload mechanic.

 

Ranged Weapons:

- short bow speed factor remains 6 (which actually means 4 taking bows +1/2 apr into account)

- long bow speed factor changed from 7 to 9

- composite long bow speed factor changed from 7 to 10

- light xbow speed factor changed from 5 to 1

- heavy xbow speed factor changed from 10 to 1

- after firing a bolt, light xbow now requires 1 second to reload, during which the character cannot move

- after firing a bolt, heavy xbow now requires 2 seconds to reload, during which the character cannot move

- sling speed factor changed from 6 to 10

What do you think?

 

On a side note, we are still discussing about slings allowing STR bonus to dmg (BGEE seems to have opted for it).

 

Thrown Weapons: thrown axes/daggers/hammers/spears range lowered from v3's 20 to 15.

 

Dagger vs. Short Sword vs. Long Sword: now this is something I only mentioned to Arda but he implemented it before I could play the devil's advocate against myself. :D Anyway, I think it takes a second to revert if necessary, and the change I'm talking about is making short sword use slashing dmg type instead of piercing.

The current situation is this:

- when it comes to "daggers vs. short swords" you have to decide between a slightly faster weapon (speed factor 1 vs. 3), there no other difference between the two weapons. I'd say SS are very slightly better, but overall the balance is fine I guess.

- when it comes to "short sword vs. long sword" instead, the latter has +1 dmg, but worse speed factor (5), off hand thac0 penalty, backstab multiplier penalty, and worse armor penetration (piercing weapons have better thac0 vs. armors).

 

Now, some of long swords penalties are "situational" (e.g. not all characters need to backstab or dual wield), and if the wielder is a warrior with high apr long sword's speed factor quickly lowers itself (from 5 to 2.5 with 2 apr, 1.67 with 3 apr - almost as fast as a thief with daggers), and thac0 against armors shouldn't be a problem (even more so if the warrior is a fighter class with weapon mastery). Conclusion: on paper the long sword is indeed inferior in terms of global stats (tons of drawbacks for just +1 dmg), making it a poor choice for a non-warrior imo, but it might still be a valid option for a warrior, is it?

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- light xbow speed factor changed from 5 to 1

- after firing a bolt, light xbow now requires 1 second to reload, during which the character cannot move

Nice.

 

 

On a side note, we are still discussing about slings allowing STR bonus to dmg (BGEE seems to have opted for it).

I dislike that, since there's already a unique sling with that property. But regardless, I have no real objections against it since in my games, whoever wields a sling has a low strenght (druids, mages etc.)

 

 

Dagger vs. Short Sword vs. Long Sword:

 

Imo, Long swords are a great choice not because of their damage, but because of their properties/equiped effects. There really (imo) isn't a rivarly in between long/short sword for my warriors. You got flaming, level draining, immunities, vs undead, vs dragons, elemental damage.....it's the sheer amount of options which makes them great, and which short swords lack (not that short swords are bad, but they're more thief-oriented).

Daggers - you can throw them, which is a nice boon in BG1 (use 1 proficency for both melee and ranged weapon).

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