Summons’ Thac0

[FloS]

I really appreciate all the work that went into SR and although sceptical in the beginning about the break of cheese, once I installed it, I loved the result of rebalancing the spells throughout the spell levels and replaying the game became so much fun!

 

One thing though: Are you guys here sure that the general Thac0 of the summons are sufficient?

Summoned Spiders, Shadows and MK-Swords were pretty much useless, as they would not get a hit for several rounds against minor enimies, like orks, spiders, ettins, even a goblin lastet 5 rounds against an MK-Sword once, because it could not land a hit.

 

For my Solo-Sorcerer the only summon that made sense was the Planetar. Which I loved in its rework, esp. with the auto-buffing.

 

Or are you supposed to pre-buff the summon so that the THAC0 drops a bit? Which priest spells would achieve this?

 

A last question: Can I delete the new sound-set for the new Planetar-Avatar somehow? So that I have the new in-game figure of the Planetar, with the old sound (“I shall prevail!”)

[Demivrgvs]

I really appreciate all the work that went into SR and although sceptical in the beginning about the break of cheese, once I installed it, I loved the result of rebalancing the spells throughout the spell levels and replaying the game became so much fun!

 

One thing though: Are you guys here sure that the general Thac0 of the summons are sufficient?

Summoned Spiders, Shadows and MK-Swords were pretty much useless, as they would not get a hit for several rounds against minor enimies, like orks, spiders, ettins, even a goblin lastet 5 rounds against an MK-Sword once, because it could not land a hit.

First of all I'd like to remind that SR's summoning spells already are hugely more powerful than PnP ones (e.g. an Ogre Magi alone would be summoned by the 8th lvl MS VI within AD&D, SR allows you to summon him and 2 ogres at once, with the 5th lvl MSIII), and in general summons are not supposed to "wipe the floor" for you.

 

You mention three particular summons, which probably suffer of the problem you mention more than other summons, but that's because their strength doesn't come from their THAC0. Spiders shine when summoned in an area filled with Web spells as they always hit a webbed creature, and their poison can make the kills fast. Shadows are meant more as tanks (cannon fodder) as they can absorb quite a lot of physical dmg, and they too shine if the caster makes good use of all their immunities (e.g. casting them in an area with spells such as Entangle, Web, Stinking Cloud, Ice Storm, Cloudkill). Last but not least, Mordy isn't intended to be an incredible threat at all, and if it was it would be an OP spell imo. The magic sword is almost invulnerable, and it's there to provide a "distraction", performing the classic tank role better than any other summon (only a golem could do better) while offering a moderate threat (though it indeed needs to be non completely marginal, else the opponent could just ignore the sword).

 

Speaking of creatures: SR's summoned creatures almost always follow very closely PnP rules when it comes to stats and abilities, and they always are as powerful, or more powerful, then their PnP version. Speaking of spells: SR summoning spells always summon more powerful cretures than PnP equivalent spells.

 

So, if you ask me, there may be individual cases where the current thac0 value may not be enough to make that particular spell/creature appealing for its spell lvl (e.g. Summon Shadow's shadows and wraiths are generally accused of that), but as a general rule, SR's summons have very good thac0 values.

 

For my Solo-Sorcerer the only summon that made sense was the Planetar. Which I loved in its rework, esp. with the auto-buffing.

Sorcerers aren't really suited to fill a Conjurer's role, mainly because most early summons tend to become much less efficient later on, and for their few selected spells they need to take spells which don't fade in effectiveness at higher lvls. As a sorcerer the only "summon" I'd still consider as a valid pick is Mordy, as its effectiveness for tanking purposes is always great.

 

Or are you supposed to pre-buff the summon so that the THAC0 drops a bit? Which priest spells would achieve this?

You haven't many ways to buff an army of summons, especially as a cleric. Bless and Chant are pretty much your only options. If you want to boost boost a single summon instead Champion's Strength may be a good option (up to +6 bonus to STR, DEX and CON), but it's probably better to cast it on a party member unless you are soloing.

 

If you have mage spells instead, the obvious outstanding mass buff is Haste, and on a single powerful summon (such as a greater elemental) Improved Haste is terrific.

 

Furthermore, you have quite a few ways to lowers opponents AC, effectively raising the effectiveness of your summons (and their chance to hit). A great and classic "debuff" spells is Slow, but if you need your summons to hit more consistently I'd suggest you trying out Emotion: Despair (-4 to target's AC).

 

On a side note, this discussion makes me think a good offensive buff spell wouldn't hurt, such as one of the Emotion variants, later turned into 3E's Heroism spells.

 

A last question: Can I delete the new sound-set for the new Planetar-Avatar somehow? So that I have the new in-game figure of the Planetar, with the old sound (“I shall prevail!”)

You need to alter their cre files and assign them Solar's lines...but keep in mind SR's celestials are "males" and vanilla's solar has a female sound voice.

[Lawlight]

OT

On a side note, this discussion makes me think a good offensive buff spell wouldn't hurt, such as one of the Emotion variants, later turned into 3E's Heroism spells.

Yes I really miss Heroism at least for my bards.

[FloS]

Thank you very much for the in-depth response!

 

My perception stems indeed from a selective list of summons, this I realized now. I sometimes did use them in the strategic way as described, at least with web+spiders, but I did not think enough about the summons special characteristics. I learned something new here.

 

I guess I was confused because with the vanilla game I picked Animate Dead, MK-Sword and Planetar as summons for a Solo-Sorcerer and I wanted again three different summons, but only wanted to go for lvl 4 or 5.

 

Do the Planetars enter the game Improve Hasted as in the vanilla game? (I actually would just need to count the APR, 2 or 4, I will do that)

 

Thank you for the time in this whole project!

 

Best

[Demivrgvs]

I guess I was confused because with the vanilla game I picked Animate Dead, MK-Sword and Planetar as summons for a Solo-Sorcerer and I wanted again three different summons, but only wanted to go for lvl 4 or 5.

Well, you don't have much choices at 4th and 5th lvl in terms of summons, but if you prefer "damage dealers" I'd sugest you to pick MSIII instead of Summon Shadows. Ogre Berserkers can only dream the immunities and resistances of Lesser Elementals and Shadows, but can pack quite a lot of damage, and later on the Ogre Magi can Haste them too!

 

That being said, I strongly believe sorceres are not suited to fill summoner's role, neither conceptually nor in terms of in-game performances.

 

Do the Planetars enter the game Improve Hasted as in the vanilla game? (I actually would just need to count the APR, 2 or 4, I will do that)

No, SR's Planetars are not hasted.