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Demivrgvs

New Divine Spells for v4

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@Lawlight, I pretty much agree with your picks and reasons. :)

 

6th Level Cleric Spells

Clerics don't have their usual abundance of spells at this level, but moving here Symbol of Fear will make it almost enough (10).

 

Banishment

Well, not really a new spell because it's pretty much vanilla's Death Spell, but it's a new spell for clerics, and a very formidable one!

 

Spiritual Wrath

I mention it for completeness, but I cannot make it work as per PnP (it requires multiple casters there), and probably not even as per IWD. :D So, unless we think we like a Greater Holy Smite/Unholy Blight spell, there's little else to do with this spell. A better solution imo is to merge Bolt of Glory's concept with Spiritual Wrath to make the former better (as I suggested in the relative topic).

 

Various

I wouldn't mind trying to reach the usual 12 spells per level, but I haven't found any canonic spell which would really add anything here. The only other two decent spells I could mention are Bestow Greater Curse and Greater Glyph of Warding. Speaking of the latter, in PnP even its lesser version isn't necessarily limited to do electrical damage, but I guess it's better to not complicate our life, isn't it?

 

6th Level Druid Spells

This is the most problematic spell lvl to handle by far. Vanilla's spells are few, some of them are completely invented (False Dawn) or not much appealing (Searing Orb), and even looking into PnP we don't have so many great picks. Anyway, druids have very few spells here (8) so I'd like to add 3 new spells to match the amount of spells clerics will almost surely have (11).

 

Whirlwind

This is a true must have imo. One of the most unique and iconic druid spell.

 

Tortoise Shell

Very simple, a MASSIVE armor class boost (it's up to +9 AC within 3E). Within PnP it can be cast on others, but I'd instead opt to make it caster only, especially because that would allow us to make it really powerful without worrying about balance issues (a Barkskin-like spell granting +9 AC to your best tanks?). Furthermore, while in PnP it doesn't stack with Barkskin I think instead it should, because the latter makes your skin harder, while TS gives you an external protective armor/shell. Anyway, do you think the concept is worth to be used? If yes, we'll find a way to make it shine. :)

 

Drown

In theory I like it (in vanilla we had a bunch of cold-based spells and no real water-based ones), but I find hard to make it perform a different role from Dolorous Decay, as they both are single target, save or be screwed spells. That being said, I have a similar problem for cleric's Harm, and depending on how Drown is implemented it doesn't necessarily do the same thing. PnP Drown is pretty much a save or die spell, with the only difference that the target doesn't immediately die, it lies unconscious and then dies if not helped (relatively easy heal check, or any healing spell) within a round. In our case an almost identical effect could be achieved using "stunning damage", but we could partially tweak it (e.g. the drowning may not be instantaneous) if serves to make it better.

 

What do you think?

 

Stonehold

Its PnP version would be very cool, a more powerful and party friendly entangle (stone hands try to grapple and constrict opponents entering the area), but unfortunately I don't have any animation for it (Bibgy's one doesn't really suits it imo). NWN changed it into a paralyzing cloud spell, but I'm not sure how much I'd like it, and concept wise it would probably have to be non-friendly.

 

At first sight I thought NWN version was an OP spell, because it looked like a Mass Flesh to Stone using the same spell level (though with short duration), but comparing Stonehold to Web the former doesn't seem to offer much more than the latter...am I missing something?

 

Anyway, I'm not in love with this spell, thus I'd like to know your opinions.

 

Crumble

This is my least favourite suggestion, as this spell is absurdly limited in scope. It's a pure anti-golem spell, and as such I fear it would only look as a very convenient mod-added spell.

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Banishment

Well, not really a new spell because it's pretty much vanilla's Death Spell, but it's a new spell for clerics, and a very formidable one!

Yay

 

Spiritual Wrath

I mention it for completeness, but I cannot make it work as per PnP (it requires multiple casters there), and probably not even as per IWD. :D So, unless we think we like a Greater Holy Smite/Unholy Blight spell, there's little else to do with this spell. A better solution imo is to merge Bolt of Glory's concept with Spiritual Wrath to make the former better (as I suggested in the relative topic).

Try the merge stuff as good as you can implement it.

 

Whirlwind

This is a true must have imo. One of the most unique and iconic druid spell.

Another "Yay", Wasn't it in IWD?

 

Tortoise Shell

Very simple, a MASSIVE armor class boost (it's up to +9 AC within 3E). Within PnP it can be cast on others, but I'd instead opt to make it caster only, especially because that would allow us to make it really powerful without worrying about balance issues (a Barkskin-like spell granting +9 AC to your best tanks?). Furthermore, while in PnP it doesn't stack with Barkskin I think instead it should, because the latter makes your skin harder, while TS gives you an external protective armor/shell. Anyway, do you think the concept is worth to be used? If yes, we'll find a way to make it shine. :)

Also from IWD AFAIR. Great druidic spell. I'd love to see it in BG.

 

Drown

In theory I like it (in vanilla we had a bunch of cold-based spells and no real water-based ones), but I find hard to make it perform a different role from Dolorous Decay, as they both are single target, save or be screwed spells. That being said, I have a similar problem for cleric's Harm, and depending on how Drown is implemented it doesn't necessarily do the same thing. PnP Drown is pretty much a save or die spell, with the only difference that the target doesn't immediately die, it lies unconscious and then dies if not helped (relatively easy heal check, or any healing spell) within a round. In our case an almost identical effect could be achieved using "stunning damage", but we could partially tweak it (e.g. the drowning may not be instantaneous) if serves to make it better.

I like the idea: Make it drown the lungs of target, also rendering panic and/or silence? Cured by cure disease?

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Tortoise Shell

Maybe it should instead set base AC? Up to that of +5 fullplate, i.e. -4. It can be safely cast on others then, and druids already have Stoneskin located closely, as a self-targeted protective buff.

 

Stonehold

I'm fine with unfriendly version. Except it means no AI usage...

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@Shaitan, yes, Whirlwind and Tortoise Shell were used by IWD.

 

Drown

I like the idea: Make it drown the lungs of target, also rendering panic and/or silence? Cured by cure disease?
Actually it's "cured" by any healing effect if we make it as per PnP (thus using BG's stunning damage), because the target doesn't directly die, it's only unconscious with 0 hit points (-1 in PnP). A problem in this case could be that any form of regeneration would pretty much make the target immune to this spell.

 

I could make it use a disabling opcode, but the most appropriate one (unconsciousness) isn't a flawless solution (e.g. an item protecting against sleep may end up granting immunity to this spell).

 

On a side note, judging by the readme I'd say aVENGER made water elementals use Drown, and he made just made it a save or die spell.

 

Tortoise Shell

Maybe it should instead set base AC? Up to that of +5 fullplate, i.e. -4. It can be safely cast on others then, and druids already have Stoneskin located closely, as a self-targeted protective buff.
I forgot to mention it but yes, I think this spell should indeed work setting AC and "replacing" the current armor considering the spell's concept and its PnP description: "Tortoise shell grants the armor plating of a tortoise across a creature's torso and a tough, leathery skin elsewhere." Barkskin or Stoneskin can replace and improve the "leathery skin" while the tortoise-like armor plating remains - or we could decide to describe the spell as granting no effect on skin and simply the armor plating.

 

Animation wise, I'd like TS to set the target's avatar to use something like Ankheg's Plate Armor but I guess it's not doable. I hope making the spell temporarily recolor target's armor (whichever it is) to use a green/brown palette will still be good enough, is it?

 

I'm not sure about making this spell usable on others, not only for balance issues, but because it would be weird in some cases. For example kensais should not be able to use it imo, and mages should suffer spellcasting penalties as if wearing real armor.

 

Alternatively, we could use the older Magic of Faerun's concept of this spell (the one used by IWD), making it create an external shell (similar to a Globe of Invulnerability but protecting from physical attacks). Speaking of which, IWD/MoF's version of this spell is a 3rd lvl spell, whereas Complete Divine's one is 6th.

 

Which concept do you prefer?

 

Stonehold

I'm fine with unfriendly version. Except it means no AI usage...
My problem with this spell is its concept. Balance wise as a 6th lvl spell it could probably be party friendly, but while I like its PnP concept I don't like much NWN's cloud version, and I cannot even imagine this petrifying cloud having any natural source. :( Is it just me?

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Tortoise Shell

 

I'd vote for making it create an external shell and make it then usable on others as well. In this way, no recoloring is needed but I wonder if there might be other visual effects that'd do nice instead. How does IWD display it?

Edited by Salk

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Drown

I like the idea: Make it drown the lungs of target, also rendering panic and/or silence? Cured by cure disease?
Actually it's "cured" by any healing effect if we make it as per PnP (thus using BG's stunning damage), because the target doesn't directly die, it's only unconscious with 0 hit points (-1 in PnP). A problem in this case could be that any form of regeneration would pretty much make the target immune to this spell.

 

I could make it use a disabling opcode, but the most appropriate one (unconsciousness) isn't a flawless solution (e.g. an item protecting against sleep may end up granting immunity to this spell).

 

On a side note, judging by the readme I'd say aVENGER made water elementals use Drown, and he made just made it a save or die spell.

Would perhaps be the wisest thing to do like aVenger? Do we still discuss Drown vs Dolores Decay? I'm undecided, on one side I think Drown is most uniqe, however I don't really find it able to beat an slightly upgraded Dolores Decay...

 

Tortoise Shell

Alternatively, we could use the older Magic of Faerun's concept of this spell (the one used by IWD), making it create an external shell (similar to a Globe of Invulnerability but protecting from physical attacks). Speaking of which, IWD/MoF's version of this spell is a 3rd lvl spell, whereas Complete Divine's one is 6th.

I'd prefer this solution, add it to level 6 and make it applicable to NPC's. Using 6th level spell sloths on this spell to boost your warriors IMO doesn't make it OPed.

 

Stonehold

I'm fine with unfriendly version. Except it means no AI usage...
My problem with this spell is its concept. Balance wise as a 6th lvl spell it could probably be party friendly, but while I like its PnP concept I don't like much NWN's cloud version, and I cannot even imagine this petrifying cloud having any natural source. :( Is it just me?

Nope, I like the idea, but can't see it working in BG, better keep it away.

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On a side note, judging by the readme I'd say aVENGER made water elementals use Drown, and he made just made it a save or die spell.

 

True, but with some restrictions.

 

Water Elementals can only use Drown on helpless (held or sleeping) targets and it doesn't work on creatures that do not breathe (undead, constructs, elementals...) nor on large/incorporeal creatures. Note that this is handled via the Water Elemental AI script and not within the spell itself.

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Drown

On a side note, judging by the readme I'd say aVENGER made water elementals use Drown, and he made just made it a save or die spell.

True, but with some restrictions.

 

Water Elementals can only use Drown on helpless (held or sleeping) targets and it doesn't work on creatures that do not breathe (undead, constructs, elementals...) nor on large/incorporeal creatures. Note that this is handled via the Water Elemental AI script and not within the spell itself.

I gave those restrictions for granted. :) Since V3 both IR and SR made all effects/abilities take those things into account within items/spells themselves.

 

Btw, what you did with Drown and Drowing Kiss is what should be done to Mind Flayer's INT drain ability too. They should be able to use that ability only on helpless targets (e.g. stunned by Mind Blast). Good work as usual. :)

 

Would perhaps be the wisest thing to do like aVenger?
Usually I would have said yes, but in this case I'm not sure. It would lose all its uniqueness imo, and look just like a Finger of Death with no damage on successful save. :(

 

Do we still discuss Drown vs Dolores Decay? I'm undecided, on one side I think Drown is most uniqe, however I don't really find it able to beat an slightly upgraded Dolores Decay...
That largely depends on what the two spells end up looking. Drown is more like a "save or die" spell, whereas Dolorous Decay is a "half disabling half damaging" spell (or as suggested an almost pure damaging spell).

 

Tortoise Shell

I'd vote for making it create an external shell and make it then usable on others as well. In this way, no recoloring is needed but I wonder if there might be other visual effects that'd do nice instead. How does IWD display it?
If I remember it correctly it's like a Spell Deflection or ProMissile overlay, but green and vaguely resembling a tortoise shell.

 

Using 6th level spell sloths on this spell to boost your warriors IMO doesn't make it OPed.
I've nothing against making it usable on others per se. It just imposes a few more restrictions imo (aka it has to be slightly weaker). For example I was considering to make it grant physical resistance too, to improve an eventual concentration check, but I would never do it on a spell which can be cast on others (because of balance issues with Hardiness, Barbarian's innate resistances, etc.).

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Btw, what you did with Drown and Drowing Kiss is what should be done to Mind Flayer's INT drain ability too. They should be able to use that ability only on helpless targets (e.g. stunned by Mind Blast). Good work as usual. :)

 

Agreed, and I'm sure that Wisp will take that into account when he gets to PnP Mind Flayers.

 

I personally find Bioware's "brain drain on-hit" implementation extremely silly.

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Tortoise Shell

I vote to make it caster only for reasons by Demivrgvs.

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Tortoise Shell

I'm not sure about making this spell usable on others, not only for balance issues, but because it would be weird in some cases. For example kensais should not be able to use it imo, and mages should suffer spellcasting penalties as if wearing real armor.
This is exactly why I was initially considering the Ironwood spell, to create an actual item with all restrictions applied.

 

Balance - I'm fairly sure that a 6th level spell deserves to be powerful. All it really does is improving AC by 2-4 points further.

 

 

Drown

Higher amount of stunning damage results in longer unconsciousness. Does healing awaken the creature regardless of amount of damage taken?

 

Would perhaps be the wisest thing to do like aVenger?

Usually I would have said yes, but in this case I'm not sure. It would lose all its uniqueness imo, and look just like a Finger of Death with no damage on successful save. :(

Same here, really.

 

Maybe gradual drowning? Subject takes average to high amount of stunning damage every 1-2 seconds, interrupting actions (coughing is good at that), and if he doesn't make it - most likely - then falls unconscious. I'm not sure what can be done about regeneration, but continuing damage can keep him aground for a short while. In any case, the subject will easily die from any lethal damage source, which is what Harm was about in vanilla game.

 

 

Stonehold

I don't like much NWN's cloud version, and I cannot even imagine this petrifying cloud having any natural source.
Some fungi spores?

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6th Level Cleric Spells

Banishment

Go for it.

 

Spiritual Wrath & Bolt of Glory

Really, I don't see this spell any useful taken by itself. Not to mention, that I always disliked IWD's version because I remembered it as a co-op spell. I'm interested in the idea of merging it with Bolt of Glory though. But how do you plan to merge them? Spiritual Wrath is originally a save or half spell, while Bolt of Glory grants no save (which I like much). Spiritual Wrath's damage scales with the number of priests casting it (per PnP), but you can not realize that within BG, while Bolt of Glory does not scale in any particular way. SW does AoE damage (range scales with nuber of casters too), while BoG does single target damage based on creature type. Conceptionally they are really different. Did I mentioned that I don't like what IWD did to this spell? :p Personally it doesn't bother me much, that Bolt of Glory is originally a Torm only spell. The whole BG divine system is a big "melting pot" anyway...

 

Bestow Greater Curse & Greater Glyph of Warding

Both aren't really needed.

 

6th Level Druid Spells

1) Whirlwind

Very iconic indeed!

 

2) Tortoise Shell

I like this spell and prefer Ardanis solution of setting AC to a specific value (making it druids fullplate). This way druids could negate their drawback of not beeing able to wear metal armors at an appropriate spell lvl and for the first time ever I would install IR's Restrict Fighter/Druids to Armor that Druids Can Wear component for Jaheira. I don't like the idea of it beeing casted on others though.

 

For example I was considering to make it grant physical resistance too, to improve an eventual concentration check, but I would never do it on a spell which can be cast on others (because of balance issues with Hardiness, Barbarian's innate resistances, etc.).

Since druids lose Armor of Faith maybe (which I voted for too), this spell could replace Armor of Faith for druids in terms of helping with TobEx's Concentration Check feature. Call me crazy but I would even consider to expand it to vanillas protection to physical and magical (elemental) attacks, which fits druids very well.

 

3) Drown

Again a water based one and I like it for that fact. I don't think Dolorous Decay & Drown collide much. Your suggested improvement for DD would leave it as pure damage force to encouter regenerate abilities, while Drown is pretty much a save or die spell. I personally like aVenger's version the most. While the PnP version of this spell is more unique, it is also hugely long-winded and inefficient. Shaitan's suggestion of a secondary effect like silence or panic on a failed save instead could keep the spell attractive and would differentiate it from Finger of Death.

 

Maybe gradual drowning? Subject takes average to high amount of stunning damage every 1-2 seconds, interrupting actions (coughing is good at that), and if he doesn't make it - most likely - then falls unconscious.

But that would indeed bring it to close to Demi's suggested Dolorous Decay imo. Well, it all depends of how DD will look like in the end. If it keeps its old concept, I really like your suggested gradual drowning, Ardanis.

Edited by Lawlight

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Tortoise Shell

I'm not sure about making this spell usable on others, not only for balance issues, but because it would be weird in some cases. For example kensais should not be able to use it imo, and mages should suffer spellcasting penalties as if wearing real armor.
This is exactly why I was initially considering the Ironwood spell, to create an actual item with all restrictions applied.
I know, but I think we agreed making such spell appealing is an impossible mission (Mission Impossible's music in my hears as I write this).

 

Balance - I'm fairly sure that a 6th level spell deserves to be powerful. All it really does is improving AC by 2-4 points further.
Well, if it improves AC by 2-4 points while also working as an Armor of Faith spell I would already consider to use it as long as it has a really long duration...but you're right, this spell will have to compete (though not directly) with cleric's Entropy Shield, thus it needs to be great.

 

Despite my initial preference toward an armor-like effect, I guess making it use Magic of Faerun's concept (aka an external shell - using IWD animation) could be the best solution, as it would allow us more possibilities. I cannot make it absorb damage as per IWD, but making the shell increase both AC and physical resistance could still work, and making it temporary increase maximum hit points may as well, does it?

 

I like this spell and prefer Ardanis solution of setting AC to a specific value (making it druids fullplate). This way druids could negate their drawback of not beeing able to wear metal armors at an appropriate spell lvl and for the first time ever I would install IR's Restrict Fighter/Druids to Armor that Druids Can Wear component for Jaheira. I don't like the idea of it beeing casted on others though.
You know that even with PnP restrictions Jaheira is still able to wear some amongst the best IR's heavy armors? Within BG1 Ankheg Plate probably is the best heavy armor you can get, and she can wear it; within SoA Red Dragonplate Armor surely is one the best heavy armor, and she can use it; ToB's Blue Dragonplate Armor has the best AC in the whole game, and guess what...she can use it! I'll never understand the heavy dislike for that component. :(

 

Drown

Higher amount of stunning damage results in longer unconsciousness.
Are you sure? Afaik once the target reaches 0 hit points any more damage doesn't get it to -x values, am I wrong?

 

Does healing awaken the creature regardless of amount of damage taken?
I guess it needs some testing, but I'd say yes. In PnP this spells takes 3 rounds to fully kill the target (1st round: 0 hp, unconscious - 2nd round: -1 hp, dying - 3rd round: die), but a heal check can stabilize the target, interrupting/countering this spell.
Maybe gradual drowning? Subject takes average to high amount of stunning damage every 1-2 seconds, interrupting actions (coughing is good at that), and if he doesn't make it - most likely - then falls unconscious. I'm not sure what can be done about regeneration, but continuing damage can keep him aground for a short while. In any case, the subject will easily die from any lethal damage source, which is what Harm was about in vanilla game.
That could work, though it may work in a strange way sometimes (e.g. against regenerating creatures), and it makes the spell overlap with Dolorous Decay.

 

Mmm...

 

Stonehold

I don't like much NWN's cloud version, and I cannot even imagine this petrifying cloud having any natural source.
Some fungi spores?
You have a good imagination, I give you that. :D I'm not sure I buy it though. ;)

 

Bestow Greater Curse & Greater Glyph of Warding

Both aren't really needed.
I admitted it already, but while they are really not much unique/great, they would still both perform a role no other spell at that level do, especially GGoW (mass damaging spell). Anyway, I suggested to add one of them only to reach the classic 12 spells per level amount (we have 11 spells right now). That being said, looking once again at the most classic AD&D spells there's actually one more spell we may try to implement, Forbiddance (I don't have a link for its AD&D version, but 3E version is almost identical). This spell would more or less work as another spell suggested by Ardanis, Repulsion.

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Tortoise Shell

...and making it temporary increase maximum hit points may as well, does it?

 

I am against this as it does not seem to fit with the spell concept. Just make it grant a solid AC bonus and physical resistance plus the possibility of casting it on others to make it really appealing.

 

Restrict Fighter/Druids to Armor that Druids Can Wear

 

I'll never understand the heavy dislike for that component. :(

 

Do not change it. I use it and I like it EXACTLY the way it is, Demi!

Edited by Salk

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