Summoning Spells for V4

[DrAzTiK]

Thanks, I am going to check but I am afraid my ToBEx version is too old

[Ardanis]

There is another problem with the cap i and others experienced. When summons get imprisoned or mazed and one leaves the area, the summoning cap will be reduced. When i left the Underdark in one playthrough i was only able to summon 2 creatures.

As Adanedhel says, it was fixed in ToBEx.

[urdjur]

Having read this thread also, I come to much the same conclusion as I did with the spells in general: I really like what's in store for v4 but I feel the ideas presented are just a hair short of being taken all the way to their logical conclusion. I'd like to present an idea that builds upon what has been discussed here, provides even greater streamlining, is consistent with PnP while being "BG feasible" AND (perhaps most important of all) does not entail a boat load of even more work for Demi. It is a bit radical though, so please hear me out and consider before you make up your mind. What I propose is 2x3 "catch-all" lines or suites of summoning spells that make for a streamlined middle road between present BG and various PnP versions:

 

Banishable/Dismissable Spells Without Drawback

These three suites include one spell per respective spell level and can be banished/dismissed/death spelled as normal. As per 3.5 PnP, only 1 monster is summoned, but higher level variants have the option of calling more lesser summons instead. So MS-III could call the MS-III monster, or 2 of the MS-II monster or 3 of the MS-I monster. Thus, great versatility can be achieved with a minimum of summons needed (25 different creatures total, see below). There is little need for a summoning cap under these conditions IMO, but I'd be fine with keeping it too.

 

Monster Summoning I-IX: As you are already planning. These would replace and incorporate Spider Spawn, Invisible Stalker, Wyvern Call and possibly even the Hakeshar/Nishruu. Conjuration, 1 round CT, 1 round/level duration (as per 3e PnP). Personally, I don't think occasional humanoids would destroy the flavor of this spell, so why not use the work from v3 where appropriate? I also don't care about following a strict HD rule - as Demi said, what matters is the actual power level of the summon and HD is a rather poor indicator of that unless we're talking primary casters. I'm also all for tweaking creature statistics from PnP if it makes something more balanced. At least in 3.5, there are generic templates (like "greater" etc.) that can be applied to beef up any creature.

 

Animal Summoning I-VII: Same principle as with the other spell suite but of course druid/ranger only. I was thinking these animals should be of a lower power than their monster summoning level equivalent, but compensate by having a longer duration (1 turn/level?). The rationale would be that since they come "naturally" from the same plane, the summon is easier to keep up. I would like to fit the Nymph here too, so maybe the suite should be called "Call Woodland Beings" or some such instead.

 

Create Undead I-IX: There are more than enough undead summons within SRv3 already to implement this smoothly. This would of course incorporate/replace animate dead, summon shadows etc. and be the necromancer's way of competing with the conjurer. Again, same basic mechanic of 9 varied base creatures and being able to select more lesser creatures if you prefer. I would even suggest moving the Death Knight here, as a 100% friendly level IX undead (perhaps tweaked a bit for balance). The Skeleton Warrior could be a level 7 summon to top off the priestly curve.

 

Non-Dismissable Summons With Drawback

These three suites need not cover each level but instead come in a familiar "lesser/greater" curve, ultimately ending with the HLA/innate Devas, Elemental Princes and Planetars that already exist. Creating some extra creatures may be needed here, as has been discussed in other threads, to provide fitting alternatives for all alignments etc.

 

Lesser/"Normal"/Greater Elemental: I suggest making these druid only (rangers may be able to reach the lesser variant too). Suggested for spell levels 3, 5 and 7. Type of elemental is selected upon casting.

 

Lesser/"Normal"/Greater Planar Ally: For clerics/paladins. Demonic or angelic, depending on alignment (much like deva vs. fallen deva). I suggest removing Gate from the priestly spell list, but it should essentially be a beefed up lvl 9 version along the same vein. Spell levels 3, 5 and 7.

 

Lesser/"Normal"/Greater Planar Binding + Gate: For arcane casters roughly at spell levels 3, 5, 7 and 9. The genies would fit right in here. Ideally, there would be two similar creatures to choose from at each level, much like the idea with Summon Genie. Any "extraplanar" creature from any editition is fair game for these spells IMO, but they should ideally have an arcane feel to them, much like the game differentiates between devas and planetars.

 

As for the drawback, I've personally felt that the current percentage chance for demon summoning is far from ideal. Do players use these spells much or is it mostly for the AI? The drawback is easily handled through reloading, and if you must resort to fiends you've probably failed the encounter a couple of times already. Maybe it's just me but I never use these spells in SR/SCS installations due to the current drawback.

 

My suggestion for a drawback for all these spells is to take inspiration from spells like Project Image and Tenser's Transformation: You must concentrate on the spell. If you attack, cast a spell or take damage, the summon is dismissed prematurely. You can walk about, but that's it. Concentrating on it actively also gives a rationale as to why it can't be dismissed/banished. Essentially, you pay with action time which is really the only currency that matters for casters at high levels. You can have your powerful creature, but you can't simultaneously support it with spells. Nor can you have 2 at the same time - again solving the summoning cap issue.

 

What do you think about these ideas? The only similar things that don't fit into these suites would be the "evocation summons" like Mordy Sword and the planned Ball Lightning (which looks awesome btw!). I do think we'll have room to fit both undead 1-9 and monsters 1-9 by consolidating all existing summons into these lines. IMO, this is how BG "should" have implemented summoning, and indeed how WotC went about it in later editions. Looking forward to your thoughts

[n-ghost]

Uh, speaking of monster summoning: maybe it could be done a bit like Polymorph Self (and the other spells that have some buttons inside them)? You cast a spell and then you have a list of creatures you can summon with this particular spell etc.

 

upd: I have a feeling that the thing above sounded horrible grammar-wise, so here is just a quote from v4 to-do list.

 

We may end merging all elementals into the same spell, allowing the caster to select the type on the fly (a la Spell Immunity).

 

Same I suggest for summoning spells: throwing in a choise between hobgoblins and carrion crawlers in a single spell @ level III etc.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Monster Summoning I-IX: As you are already planning. These would replace and incorporate Spider Spawn, Invisible Stalker, Wyvern Call ...

 

Animal Summoning I-VII: Same principle as with the other spell suite but of course druid/ranger only. I was thinking these animals should be of a lower power than their monster summoning level equivalent, but compensate by having a longer duration (1 turn/level?). The rationale would be that since they come "naturally" from the same plane, the summon is easier to keep up. I would like to fit the Nymph here too, so maybe the suite should be called "Call Woodland Beings" or some such instead.

Lore wise, the question comes, would the Spiders spawned via the spell be actually monsters, or actually be animals, Wyverns can also be called animals if we want to... "Summon Natures Allies" could be a good compromise(instead of Animal Summoning).

But I still say that summon spells at level one... they need to be really severely nerfed characters, or started at levels 3 --->

[urdjur]

Lore wise, the question comes, would the Spiders spawned via the spell be actually monsters, or actually be animals, Wyverns can also be called animals if we want to... "Summon Natures Allies" could be a good compromise,,,

 

Good point. Spicing up the druid animal list with Nymph, Spider and Wyvern in between would certainly be better than just a suite of Bear, Large Bear, Very Large Bear IMO. That doesn't mean arcane casters couldn't have spiders and wyverns too though, if those are still deemed to be the most popular/fitting for the Summon Monster suite.

 

But I still say that summon spells at level one... they need to be really severely nerfed characters, or started at levels 3 --->

 

Traditionally in PnP, editions with level one summons have had a duration of 1 round/level. So at CL 1, a 1-2 HD creature will get off 1 attack and perhaps distract an opponent for a round - after a 1 round casting time investment. Hardly broken IMO. The scaling of the duration in particular is what makes even low level summons much better later on, especially if they have a ranged attack.

[Demivrgvs]

Wow, so much things to say. Let's see...

 

Monster Summoning

@urdjur, more or less we agree on this, but I really don't like 1 round/lvl duration because early on it makes no sense. A full round of casting to summon a weak creature who stays around 1-2 rounds? o_O

 

@Yarno, making 1st-2nd lvl summon spells balanced for low levels is very easy, it's just a matter of making the spell summon a creature who doesn't even compare to a 1-2HD NPC-class characters. For monsters that means gibberlings, kobolds, and goblins; for animals that means rats and dogs.

 

@n-ghost, yes I would really like to have MS spells offer multiple choices (e.g. MSII could summon kobolds or goblins), but I'm not sure I'll be able to offer it for various reasons. Creating, scripting and balancing summons is a really time consuming job. I'm not sure I have enough time or ideas to give at least 2 choices for each spell (not to mention making them 2 really different choices, and not just a "cometic" difference). Furthermore, AS spells already are at a disadvantage imo because monsters have much more varied types and abilities - animals are just plain "melee" summons - and adding even more variety to MS spells would be somewhat "unfair" for AS ones (I can barely fill these spells with 1 creature type).

 

Animal Summoning

Perhaps I'm too tied to PnP but wyverns are not natural animals, they are magical beasts. I'm a little more simpathetic when it comes to giant spiders, but still I'm not 100% sure they fit in.

 

Undead Summoning

I'm not sure I agree on this. For a Necromancer having 1 undead summoning spell for each spell lvl is not as important as for a Conjurer having at least 1 monster summoning spell per lvl. Necromancers have a much more particular and powerful arsenal of spells outside of "summons" compared to a Conjurer imo. For MS spells I'm simply expanding something which is already there (MSIII+ spells where actually already planned and semi-designed but not implemented by the original BG), in the other case I'd be creating an entire new line of spells. Last but not least, I'm not sure I have space for all these new spells (e.g. hardly for 1st lvl, almost surely not for 2nd lvl), and if I have enough time and ideas to fill all those spells with new, balanced summons (though we have plenty of undead creatures to fill them).

 

Short story: I don't dislike the idea, but it's not a top priority imo.

 

Conjure Elementals

@urdjur, Are you really suggesting to move 8HD Lesser Elementals to 3rd lvl spells? And the 12HD Elementals to to 5th? o_O That is hugely unbalanced imo, even assuming your suggested huge drawback (caster can't do anything other than concentrate on the summon). An 8HD elemental (which amongst other things is immune to non-magical weapons) within BG1 is like a Deva or Planetar in the early SoA, it will destroy everything!!

 

Planar Ally

Implementing a small Planar Ally serie of spells is something I already tried to imagine, and I think I mentioned it when discussing what to do with the Aerial Servant. I discarded it because I have absolutely no idea which creatures would fit. Devas could fit the 7th lvl version (assuming a 14th lvl cleric cannot easily summon them), but I would interfere with HLAs (I'd like to avoid that) and I have very few other ideas. Which creatures would you suggest?

 

On a side note, I kinda like that clerics don't have tons of summons, it distinguishes them even more from mages, and most importantly from druids (heavy summoners with all those animals, feys and elementals).

 

Planar Binding

Again, the problem here is which creatures would fit. For examples, genies are not strong enough to be the 7th lvl version of an eventual PB serie of spells. SR heavily improved them but if you add a PB-like drawback (mental duel, bargain, prolonged concentration, or whatever else) they'll easily not be worth their spell slot anymore, especially when at the same lvl you have things such as the anti-mage Hakeashar, a powerful 16HD elemental or the almost immortal Mordenkainen's Sword.

 

Which creatures would you suggest for each spell? Have you in mind a good-neutral-evil variant for each spell, or a creature which could fit all those alignments?

[urdjur]

@urdjur, more or less we agree on this, but I really don't like 1 round/lvl duration because early on it makes no sense. A full round of casting to summon a weak creature who stays around 1-2 rounds? o_O

 

You could make the exact same argument for Burning Hands or Magic Missile at CL 1-2. "A whole spell cast for such a small effect?" Some spells are strong early on (Sleep, Color Spray) but scale poorly, and some are the other way around. Also, with such a duration, the low level creatures need not be *that* weak - that's the beauty of it. Duration scaling makes the low level spells relevant longer without the need to include an upgrade as your summons do now. Only a single creature to balance for each spell!

 

For a Necromancer having 1 undead summoning spell for each spell lvl is not as important as for a Conjurer having at least 1 monster summoning spell per lvl. Necromancers have a much more particular and powerful arsenal of spells outside of "summons" compared to a Conjurer imo.

 

I agree with this on principle. It's just that with all the undead summoning already present, we're practically there already.

 

For MS spells I'm simply expanding something which is already there (MSIII+ spells where actually already planned and semi-designed but not implemented by the original BG), in the other case I'd be creating an entire new line of spells.

 

But that's exactly the case with undead too - you have introduced enough undead summons with previous SR versions that it's almost as easy to include a level 1-9 line of undead summons as it is with monster summons. The benefit would be ease of overview + a coherent line of spells with the 3.5 mechanic allowing you to summon more of the lesser undead, providing built in versatility to every spell (above level 1).

 

Last but not least, I'm not sure I have space for all these new spells (e.g. hardly for 1st lvl, almost surely not for 2nd lvl), and if I have enough time and ideas to fill all those spells with new, balanced summons (though we have plenty of undead creatures to fill them).

 

I have taken this into consideration in my comments in the new v4 spells thread. Even at level 1 and 2, I think the price to pay is small to fit such a line of spells.

 

@urdjur, Are you really suggesting to move 8HD Lesser Elementals to 3rd lvl spells? And the 12HD Elementals to to 5th? o_O That is hugely unbalanced imo, even assuming your suggested huge drawback (caster can't do anything other than concentrate on the summon). An 8HD elemental (which amongst other things is immune to non-magical weapons) within BG1 is like a Deva or Planetar in the early SoA, it will destroy everything!!

 

Not at all. I'm never suggesting *anything* that would impact play balance negatively. I'm suggesting giving BG1 casters access to a more powerful and unique summon mid game apart from the bread and butter summons - the power level of all summons in my suggested system should be tweaked accordingly. Also, if the progression is 3-5-7 or 4-6-7 doesn't really matter to me. I'm saying it would be nice for druids to have access to a powerful (but not über powerful), short duration summon with a significant drawback in BG1. I also think immunity to Banishment needs to be slightly more available, but come at a price and have a somewhat realistic rationale (like the concentration solution I suggest).

 

Which creatures would you suggest for each spell? Have you in mind a good-neutral-evil variant for each spell, or a creature which could fit all those alignments?

 

I don't think I'm sufficiently familiar with all the available monsters and animations, implemented or not, to comment. My idea was basically that following these 2x3 suites that I suggest and the built-in substitution mechanic of the first 3 spell lines, most slots could be filled with a fitting creature with some tweaking and you wouldn't have to do so much work. Also, there would be no "stray" summons - these spell lines would be it (apart from the evocations), which I think is a huge benefit for players new and old alike.

 

For example, look at the Spider Spawn spell. In the system I suggest, perhaps you'd only use the Sword Spider and make it the SM-III summon with a 1 round/level duration. SM-IV could then summon 2 of those or 1x the monster specific to its level.

 

If you think the Genie is to weak for concentration based level 7 Greater Planar Binding, just put it in the level 5 Planar Binding slot. Or make it a level 6 Planar Binding. Or tweak the stats of the Genies a bit. Adaptation is easy in this system!

 

There will be blanks of course - I especially foresee blanks in the good aligned Gate option and Planar Allys. I don't know what animations are available from ToB (Solars etc.) but I pretty convinced SOMETHING that we can work with can be found, even if a unique creature must be created from scratch off a PnP inspiration. Again, I come from the beneficial perspective of not knowing how difficult such a task would be

 

As for choices by spell, you already have built-in choices for the elementals (by element) and the 3 summoning lines by virtue of the substitution mechanic. I suggest 2 choices for each Planar Ally/Binding spell. Good/Evil (the neutral character will simply have to choose, much like with HLA devas and planetars) or occasionally more "elemental" based for the Planar Bindings (as is the case for the Genies).

 

Happy that you're not completely opposed to these ideas and look forward to discussing them more

[Demivrgvs]

Monster Summoning

@urdjur, more or less we agree on this, but I really don't like 1 round/lvl duration because early on it makes no sense. A full round of casting to summon a weak creature who stays around 1-2 rounds? o_O

You could make the exact same argument for Burning Hands or Magic Missile at CL 1-2. "A whole spell cast for such a small effect?"

That's not the same at all. Both BH and MM have almost instantaneous casting time, whereas summoning takes a full round to cast. BH and MM are almost impossible to interrupt, and allow the caster to move or attack for the rest of round. Not to mention that BH and MM can instantaneously and with 100% chance deal damage to the target, whereas a summoned creature with only 1-2 rounds duration may not even manage to land a single hit before expiring (very likely when it comes to low level summons and they horrible thac0).

 

Some spells are strong early on (Sleep, Color Spray) but scale poorly, and some are the other way around.

That's a thing of the past, and something I actually tried to fix since the early versions of SR.

 

Also, with such a duration, the low level creatures need not be *that* weak - that's the beauty of it. Duration scaling makes the low level spells relevant longer without the need to include an upgrade as your summons do now. Only a single creature to balance for each spell!

I strongly disagree on this. Duration scaling only matters if the summoned creature is powerful enough to matter. I really cannot care less if my summoned kobold lasts 8 hours, it is not a summon destined to last. I prefer having either more kobolds or a better creature, because by the time I and my enemies grow in power the same creature will quickly last less and less in a fight , even if its duration is 100 times longer.

 

Undead Summoning

For a Necromancer having 1 undead summoning spell for each spell lvl is not as important as for a Conjurer having at least 1 monster summoning spell per lvl. Necromancers have a much more particular and powerful arsenal of spells outside of "summons" compared to a Conjurer imo.

I agree with this on principle. It's just that with all the undead summoning already present, we're practically there already.

Point taken. As I said, if I will discover I have both space and time to work on them I don't mind trying to go for it. I just say it's not a top priority for me.

 

Last but not least, I'm not sure I have space for all these new spells (e.g. hardly for 1st lvl, almost surely not for 2nd lvl), and if I have enough time and ideas to fill all those spells with new, balanced summons (though we have plenty of undead creatures to fill them).

I have taken this into consideration in my comments in the new v4 spells thread. Even at level 1 and 2, I think the price to pay is small to fit such a line of spells.

Well, between Electric Loop and another undead summoning I'd take the former without any doubt. The former helps increasing the # of sources of an underused damage type, and provides a little more variety. Undead summons, are almost always the same thing, melee tanks, and while a spell such as Electric Loop can remain useful for the entire game a lvl 2 summon is inevitably destined to become completely useless later on.

 

Conjure Elementals & Planar Ally/Binding

I'm saying it would be nice for druids to have access to a powerful (but not über powerful), short duration summon with a significant drawback in BG1. I also think immunity to Banishment needs to be slightly more available, but come at a price and have a somewhat realistic rationale (like the concentration solution I suggest).

Mmm...Gate-like spells are a pain to balance imo. Not only the summon can easily be OP depending on how soon the caster manages to learn how to cast it, but the required balancing drawback more often than not is either "not enough" or "too much". For example I'm not sure how many players would like your solution of having their caster completely disabled when casting a Gate spell. I fear that, unless the gated creature is absurdly powerful, the trade between a versatile high lvl spellcaster (who'd also become vulnerable in the meanwhile) and a summon will never look appealing for a player.

 

For high level spells, it's not a game-breaking issue if such gate-like spells tend to be slightly over the top, because by the time you see those spells both the party and the AI opponents are powerful enough to handle them. Early on, and ever more so within BG1, I can hardly imagine a similar type of spell being balanced. I may be wrong, but that's what I feel.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Animal Summoning

Perhaps I'm too tied to PnP but wyverns are not natural animals, they are magical beasts. I'm a little more simpathetic when it comes to giant spiders, but still I'm not 100% sure they fit in.

Well, according to the last d&d update to the MM, the wyverns are Large natural beasts, if anything, the nest area in BG1 should complement this fact. And I would much rather have trolls etc as my monsters(mage), while Wyverns etc as my animal allies(druid/high level ranger tame-able).

[Demivrgvs]

Animal Summoning

Perhaps I'm too tied to PnP but wyverns are not natural animals, they are magical beasts. I'm a little more simpathetic when it comes to giant spiders, but still I'm not 100% sure they fit in.

Well, according to the last d&d update to the MM, the wyverns are Large natural beasts, if anything, the nest area in BG1 should complement this fact.

How does the nest area is supposed to establish they are "large natural beasts" instead of "magical beasts"? Anyway, you are quoting 4th edition, which is widely considered **** (let's just say it is not considered well). BG is an AD&D game with a little bit of 3E, and there Wyverns were Magical Beasts (see here for a complete list of such creatures). While 3E "Summon Nature Ally" spell would accept magical beasts, we currently have AD&D "Animal Summoning", and wyverns are not normal animals.

 

So, the real question imo is: do we want to change Animal Summoning into Summon Nature Ally? I'm not sure of it, but I'm open to discuss it.

[Jarno Mikkola]

and there Wyverns were Magical Beasts (see here for a complete list of such creatures).

And the Wyvern is not in the list. Nor is the Giant Spider. ... making it probable that they are not Giant ones due to magic, but due to the environment.

But I would agree that the Summon Nature's Ally would be better compromise... just to feature the Nymph on it too. PS, it doesn't mean that we make the spell to be the 3rd Ed one, we make it a BG2 Ed one.

 

How does the nest area is supposed to establish they are "large natural beasts" instead of "magical beasts"?

Well, it's in a forest area, that has druids near... it's not direct yeah, but still the nest contains baby wyverns too... as to say that they bread, instead of get summoned/created.

[Demivrgvs]

Animal Summoning - Summon Nature's Ally

and there Wyverns were Magical Beasts (see here for a complete list of such creatures).

And the Wyvern is not in the list. Nor is the Giant Spider. ... making it probable that they are not Giant ones due to magic, but due to the environment.

But I would agree that the Summon Nature's Ally would be better compromise... just to feature the Nymph on it too. PS, it doesn't mean that we make the spell to be the 3rd Ed one, we make it a BG2 Ed one.

You always manage to drag me on long discussions over marginal things. I should check the links I post, point taken. Anyway, I guess that list is not complete but nonetheless wyverns are droconic magical beast (see here).

 

I never said Giant Spiders are magical beasts, they are large/huge vermins, and thus they could indeed belong to a druidic spell (actually they did within both AD&D and 3E editions with spells such as Giant Insect or Giant Vermin), but not to the Animal Summoning serie imo as "animal" seems to be a more restricted creature type.

 

I'm not sure merging everything into Nature's Ally serie is such a great thing. The result is a kinda crowded list of creatures with too varying abilities imo (animals are just "mass cannon fodder", nymphs are "spellcasters" and elementals are "elite tanks"). Not to mention that despite all the new V4 spells, this is still a "revision" mod, and wiping out dozens of original spells (AS spells, Call Woodland Beings, Conjure Elementals, etc.) merging all of them into a new serie of 3E-like spells sounds bad, no?

 

How does the nest area is supposed to establish they are "large natural beasts" instead of "magical beasts"?

Well, it's in a forest area, that has druids near... it's not direct yeah, but still the nest contains baby wyverns too... as to say that they bread, instead of get summoned/created.

Dragons have nests and baby dragons as well (neither summoned nor "created", as even Adalon's eggs quest reminds you), still they are magical beasts.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Edit: darn editor, ate my whole message, a new one on the way we go:

You always manage to drag me on long discussions over marginal things.

Yeah, I notice that, but I hope you don't see it as a bad sign.

 

I should check the links I post, point taken. Anyway, I guess that list is not complete but nonetheless wyverns are dragonic magical beast (see here).

The link says nothing of wyverns being magical beasts, just dragonic & monsters, but that can be a lot of things.



Dragons have nests and baby dragons as well (neither summoned nor "created", as even Adalon's eggs quest reminds you), still they are magical beasts.

Are they ?

Or are they part of the nature of thinks in the Forgotten Realms ?

 

Conjure Elementals... merging all of them into a new serie of 3E-like spells sounds bad, no?

It sounds bad, because the Elementals are not of the plane they are summoned to, but the one they were summoned from.

[Ardanis]

Animal Summoning - Summon Nature's Ally

I vote for the latter, because It allows to use spiders and wywerns instead of different types of canines, felines or ursines.

 

Nymphs - let them keep their own slot. Compared to the rest of possible Nature's Allies they're far too humaniod and intelligent.