Cure/Cause Wounds & Regenerate Wounds

[Demivrgvs]

Goodberry, Slow Poison & Neutralize Poison

Allowing a very cheap spell like Slow Poison to fully protect from all poisons for a prolonged time sounds a bit too much to me. Neutralize Poison is fine as it is imo, correct spell level for such an effect imo.

 

Both Slow Poison and Neutralize Poison are fine now imo, and as per PnP. I'm not sure that "saving Goodberry" is so crucial that it's worth altering two other spells for it.

 

When it comes to Antidote potions making Slow Poison unappealing, I actually never wasted my gold on the formers because of how easy it was to just memorize Slow Poison when necessary. If we wish, we could actually make Antidote potions even more expensive (I thought Store Revision already did it in a certain sense), in exchange we could make it a middle ground between Slow Posion and Neutralize Poison (e.g. 1 turn duration). Actually, I'm almost sure AD&D Antidote do granted immunity to poisons for a small duration.

 

When it comes to Goodberry, I moved it to 1st lvl and now that Druids don't have Cure Light Wound it's the only source of fast heal during combat they have. Unfortunately I cannot make it cure fatigue (that would have been awesome imo) but if we really need to do something more, what about making it grant a very small "stamina" boost for a short duration?

 

Cure Wound spells

You do have a point Jarno, but I'm not sure Cure Light Wound needs to behave like a Heal spell for low levels. Even in its current state it restores on average 5.5 hp at level 1, enough to fully heal a wizard or rogue, and an injured warrior will still be cured of half of his hit points (mind you, we are assuming all characters have maxed out HD rolls, but I'm fine with it).

[Jarno Mikkola]

Cure Wound spells

You do have a point Jarno, but I'm not sure Cure Light Wound needs to behave like a Heal spell for low levels. Even in its current state it restores on average 5.5 hp at level 1, enough to fully heal a wizard or rogue, and an injured warrior will still be cured of half of his hit points (mind you, we are assuming all characters have maxed out HD rolls, but I'm fine with it).

My wizard can have 18-22 hitpoints at level 2... and when I normally heal it's wound, the healing is 8 hitpoints... if that spell heals just 2 or 4 hit points, I reload the game, as usually I have less than 5 chars at that point. I have experienced this a few times with the Field of the Dead mod(a BG1 mod), admittedly, I save before I heal(and that's bad in all the books).

The reason why the adventurer gets a +10 hitpoints is that I tweak the .2da table ... lore-wise this can be described as a veteran/military training the chars would surely get before you send then to the adventure.

Now it would be a little different story if the cleric didn't need to pre-memorize the healing spell, but could convert a different spell on the fly(it was a partly in Clerics Kit Revisions, if I remember it correctly, but as that was not finished).

I do like what you did for the Druid variant though.

 

Of course, you do realize 1) there're no poisonous enemies at the start, 2) I said "loot" rather than "buy"...

1) What of the spiders I constantly run to in BG1 ? The first ones you run into are in Beregost. The Hobgoblin Veterans should poison you too.

Well if you say buy, it's still a buy(but in less regard). And acually there aren't that many poison fix options(or places that sell the potions) in BGT, especially if we install quite many mods.

[janoha]

Goodberries

I like moving them to level 1. How about making them add a small amount of max life? Like 2 + 1/3. lvl. up to a maximum of five? Of course it could not stack with itself.

[Ardanis]

When it comes to Antidote potions making Slow Poison unappealing, I actually never wasted my gold on the formers because of how easy it was to just memorize Slow Poison when necessary. If we wish, we could actually make Antidote potions even more expensive (I thought Store Revision already did it in a certain sense), in exchange we could make it a middle ground between Slow Posion and Neutralize Poison (e.g. 1 turn duration). Actually, I'm almost sure AD&D Antidote do granted immunity to poisons for a small duration.

 

I've been proposing that years ago, but somebody wouldn't listen

 

Allowing a very cheap spell like Slow Poison to fully protect from all poisons for a prolonged time sounds a bit too much to me. Neutralize Poison is fine as it is imo, correct spell level for such an effect imo.

 

My point is we've got two spells and two potions to deal with the poison effect. A bit too many to me.

[n-ghost]

Ahoy, asking for just a little clarification here: in SRv4 Cure\Cause Wound spells won't affect undead at all, right?

 

I believe it was actually discussed some years ago ( D: ), but still, any chance to implement PnP effects (i.e. effects of Cure\Cause spells on undead are actually reversed) in future?

 

Tbh I got a feeling that there is none, seeing that it would actually give a large piece of ham to necromancers\clerics and there's no mention of it whatsoever in all the discussion about pros and cons of buffing up CW spells

 

I'd imagine that in theory all such spells could be 'branched' (SI-like) into something like 'healing\harming spell (that works as usual and doesn't work on undead) vs conjuring touch-attack item that harms\heals undead only (can it be done that it has no effect on anything but undead?) and disappears after successful strike'.

 

It seems to require a complete overhaul of all Cure\Cause spells though and dunno if it's worth it

[Demivrgvs]

Goodberry

I like moving them to level 1. How about making them add a small amount of max life? Like 2 + 1/3. lvl. up to a maximum of five? Of course it could not stack with itself.

Mmm...at first I didn't like this idea but on second though it might actually be kinda good. Druids do not have Aid and this tweak would make berries a sort of portable Lesser Aid. I have to think about it. The con is that if I go for this implementaion you should not be able to eat more than one berry until the effect is gone imo. Either way, with druids not getting Cure Spells I think even just as healing potions these berries are not so bad now that they are a super cheap 1st lvl spell.

 

Cure/Cause Wounds vs. undead

Ahoy, asking for just a little clarification here: in SRv4 Cure\Cause Wound spells won't affect undead at all, right?

 

I believe it was actually discussed some years ago ( D: ), but still, any chance to implement PnP effects (i.e. effects of Cure\Cause spells on undead are actually reversed) in future?

...

It seems to require a complete overhaul of all Cure\Cause spells though and dunno if it's worth it

Implementing this would not be hard at all, a bit time consuming but kinda easy. The only problem is that the AI would not be able to handle it. I could think about implementing it only if we are 100% sure Cure Wound spells are never used by any AI (be it vanilla, SCS, RR, etc.) but I'd need to investigate this.

[n-ghost]

Hmmm.

 

Would it be possible to give AI casters non-branched versions of spells (so they act as usual) and branched ones to player characters?

 

The only problem with that as far as I can see are beholders spamming CW on undead minions, but AI could be probably tweaked in such way that they'd attempt to disintegrate\melee them\run instead.

 

Afair SCS AI currently uses them at full power, especially things like Heal\Mass Cure Wounds

[n-ghost]

Speaking of Mass Cure, I totally forgot about it

 

Is it possible to add some invisible effect to it, that would act like Smite Evil, but worked only on undead creatures?

[janoha]

Goodberry

I like moving them to level 1. How about making them add a small amount of max life? Like 2 + 1/3. lvl. up to a maximum of five? Of course it could not stack with itself.

Mmm...at first I didn't like this idea but on second though it might actually be kinda good. Druids do not have Aid and this tweak would make berries a sort of portable Lesser Aid. I have to think about it. The con is that if I go for this implementaion you should not be able to eat more than one berry until the effect is gone imo. Either way, with druids not getting Cure Spells I think even just as healing potions these berries are not so bad now that they are a super cheap 1st lvl spell.

 

I think it would be cool for druids to have this mini Aid, and would them a very nice party member to have for rogues and mages early on. But yeah the Max Life effect should of course only be added once. Perhaps a short duration of two fixed turns?

[n-ghost]

Btw for example I'm one of those people who conjures berries and gives them to Minsc\Imoen just because >,>

[Dancingrage]

Okay, I took a deeper look into the planned changes, and I see how it balances out. I think the Goodberry idea is neat, but the mini-Aid effect, while cool, would limit the Druid's spot healing to whatever the Goodberry rating was every, say, two turns or so.

 

Ehh, I am not feeling that one. It's pretty limiting, and the Aid effect seems a bit overpowered, not as much as my insta-Elixer of Health idea I initially had, so its balanced, but in a really awkward way. I think the current plan of make x berries that heal 1+1/3 levels is nice I'd actually suggest...2+either 1/3 or 1/2 level. Thinking more about it as I write, would it be possible to cut the number of berries created to trade for improved healing on use.

 

One thing I would like to bring up is duration of some spells. Armor sits in at 8 hours, pretty stock spell for a 1st or 2nd level arcane caster to have, is there any chance to look over some of the defensive and summon spells, especially toward lower levels? I will need to reexamine the documents to see what's been removed.

[Jad]

I know I'm kind of late to the discussion, but I've been playing with SRv4 lately and I'd like to share my thoughts on the 'Regenerate Wounds' spells and hear your opinions.

I'm definitely on board with differentiating them from the cleric 'Cure Wounds' line of spells, but I get the feeling that at the moment they are a bit too weak in comparison. I think this mostly stems from how the scaling is implemented. For now the amount healed per tick is always static and the only scaling you have is an increase in duration. In theory that would be fine, but the base duration is 1 turn + 2 rounds (72 seconds), which to me at least is already a very long time. Just adding extra rounds on top of that isn't very impressive, especially compared to the way cleric spells scale.

Compare for example, a level 7 cleric and druid casting their spells with averaged rolls: The cleric would instantly heal 3d8+3/lvl (33hp) whilst the druid would heal only 3hp per round for 24 rounds. During those 24 rounds the cleric could potentially healed 23 more times, whilst the druid can't stack his even once more. Sure eventually the druid spell would heal more, but it's over far too long of a time to be relevant. That 3hp per round is also very underwhelming when you consider an average fighter of level 7 would've been attacking 2 times each round and doing a lot more than 3 damage per hit.

Having such a long duration and such small healing increments to me makes it feel kind of useless in combat. Most battles won't last 24 rounds at those levels (about 2.5 minutes) and if they are the type to last so long the piddly 3hp/round wont be significant enough to get by without the cleric/potion burst heals. The spells feel relegated to post-combat regeneration, but it takes so long that you most likely would rather just rest instead of waiting 3 minutes to slowly heal back up.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I think this discussion isn't over yet either. I don't like the way the Healing spells start at level 1 with random amounts(see the previous post).

 

Compare for example, a level 7 cleric and druid casting their spells with averaged rolls: The cleric would instantly heal 3d8+3/lvl (33hp) whilst the druid would heal only 3hp per round for 24 rounds. During those 24 rounds the cleric could potentially healed 23 more times, whilst the druid can't stack his even once more. Sure eventually the druid spell would heal more, but it's over far too long of a time to be relevant. That 3hp per round is also very underwhelming when you consider an average fighter of level 7 would've been attacking 2 times each round and doing a lot more than 3 damage per hit.

Well, if we take your example, you might find it quite hard to find a druid or cleric that has those 24 spells at level 7, as the average should be between 10 and say 17.

But yes, I got your point. But also you could take into account that you can also cast the druids spells to 6 party members... which is rather the point of the whole thing, and then have a cleric that patches the combat wounds so they do not kill anyone right out.

Erhm, do you use the ToBEx ?

 

Cause if not, the whole regen spells get defeated cause even a poison effect could block the regen spells effect... as they both use the timed effect and without the ToBEx it doesn't work at all(well actually just the fastest one works, while the rest do not have any effects).

@Demi or anyone else that has the beta; wasn't the regen spells supposed to be stack-able with each others ?

[kreso]

I know I'm kind of late to the discussion, but I've been playing with SRv4 lately and I'd like to share my thoughts on the 'Regenerate Wounds' spells and hear your opinions.....

Regen is arguably the hardest thing to balance in this game. Too little it will make no difference, too much will make you invulnerable. Worse yet, Haste effect doubles it's effects.

Even the games itself (non-Tobex/EE editions vs Tobex installs) will work differently.

I didn't find regen wounds spells to be useless in combat, quite the opossite - especially Mass Regen is exellent, considering how often one fights in BG2.

Having regeneration on your fighters allows your druids/clerics to do other stuff rather than cast healing spells on people.

What I dislike about them is that they kind of make items with this property little redundant.

[Dakk]

@Demi or anyone else that has the beta; wasn't the regen spells supposed to be stack-able with each others ?

If I remember correctly, the new thing with tobex is that different sources of regen stack. So spell, potion and and items for example can all give a stacked regen. This should also minimize the dislike kreso have for regen spells making regen items unappealing. (On the other hand kreso have played this game like a crazy person, so if it indeed works as I thought it did, he should be aware of it... )