Cure/Cause Wounds & Regenerate Wounds

[Jad]

It's 4HP/round. Given round is 6 seconds, and the effect is doubled by Haste to more than 1HP/second, I'd say this spell is a very valid pick.

Haste comes much later, assuming you can even find a scroll, and it only lasts one turn. There's no way you have enough spells slots to waste your hastes while out of combat just to regenerate faster. Also it seems the regenerate spells themselves aren't implemented the same way as normal regeneration so I'm not even sure if haste affects them (although I think it does). Assuming it does, haste make a big improvement, but I don't know if it's a good idea to make a spell from one class so dependent on another from a different class just to be viable.

 

I don't really agree on this. Casting RLW (in early levels, where combat is slow) adds approx 20-30% HP due to low to-hit chances oponnents have. This spell heals the ammount of 3xCLW clerics have, and in BG1 where game is built around large areas to explore it's usually better to slowly heal over time. Cleric does wear plate indeed, otoh druid can wear Ankheg/Dragon plate, and have Ironskin, which beats AC later.

Sure it may heal more than the cleric version, but my point was that it's over such a long time that it's usually not relevant. Obviously having a good AC tank whom dodges most hits will get more benefit out of the spell, but the same applies to cleric heals as well. Most of the regeneration effect in those cases would probably be wasted on over-healing because it's lasting several minutes when very rarely do fights last that long. If you consider your other characters whom don't have stellar AC however, combat isn't slow for them. If a couple kobolds shoot some fire arrows in their direction they're dead in a round or two and that 1 hp every 6 seconds isn't very attractive at all. Iron Skins/Dragonplate/Ankheg come far later (not counting the cheesy free ankheg in nashkel, it's stupid that was ever there in the first place and I use item randomizer).

 

Secondly, a druid (imo at least) has very useful spells (both damage and buff/debuff) at all levels, apart final two (6th and 7th respectfully; where he gets more summon/offence oriented).

Finally, there are very few debuff spells which can measure up to several Creeping Doom/Insect Plague castings.

I dunno in BG1 levels I felt quite restricted in their playstyle. Looking at the early level druid spells:

 

Level 1 Spells:

Armor of Faith: Most likely not gonna be tanking with a druid so pretty useless.

Entange: One of the better ones here, but I'd take mage's Sleep over it any day.

Faerie Fire: Easy save, super small AoE, and only -2 AC for a low duration. Ok, but meh.

Goodberries: 5hp that can only be used for 1hp/round?

Magical Stones: Druid's low thac0 makes these unreliable.

Regenerate Light Wounds: See thread.

Shillelagh: Again low thac0 and no metal armor so I probably don't want to be in melee.

Strength of Stone: Another spell that's better off on a Fighter/Druid.

Sunscorch: Probably your best spell on this level.

 

Level 2 Spells:

Barskin: Quite good even though it's single target. Bless/Aid/Chant are probably better.

Charm: Pretty good but easy save and single target. Clerics Hold Person or Mages Web/Horror are slightly worse effects but AoE.

Find Traps: Well you can't disarm them so...

Fire Trap: Overpowered. Fireball that doesn't hurt allies and is a level 2 spell. Hard to justify taking anything else.

Flame Blade: Again seems to belong on a Fighter/Druid or Ranger.

Gust of Wind: Very specific utility that you won't need very often.

Know Opponent: Decent, but all casters have this not just druids.

Regenerate Moderate Wounds: See thread.

Resist Elements: Only 25% and you don't often encounter elemental damage in early levels.

Slow Poison: Useful sometimes, but you also get it from bhaalspawn, plentiful potions, and clerics.

 

Level 3 Spells:

Call Lightning: Good.

Contagion: Most of the time you'd rather kill something than reduce its stats by 2.

Cure Disease: Very specific utility that you won't need very often.

Dispel Magic: Essential, but all other casters get this as well.

Hold Person or Animal: Decent non-damage offensive spell. 5" AoE isn't very impressive though.

Regenerate Serious Wounds: See thread.

Storm Shield: Basically protection from missiles that lasts half as long and can only be cast on self.

Summon Insects: Really useful against casters, staple druid spell.

 

Level 4 Spells:

Animal Summoning I: By the time you get this a couple wolves aren't very useful IMO.

Call Woodland Beings: Essentially spending a level 4 slot to cast Call Lightning/Summon Insects from the previous level.

Cloak of Fear: Pretty good, chasing down feared enemies is annoying though.

Death Ward: Unlikely to have much use for this in low levels.

Farsight: Useless.

Free Action: Very useful, but mostly for specific strategies.

Ice Storm: Awesome damage, not party friendly though, but that's just being spoiled by Fire Traps.

Lesser Restoration: Not much use for it in BG1.

Negative Plane Protection: Not much use for it in BG1.

Neutralize Poison: Barely better than Slow Poison, wouldn't waste the slot.

Poison: Mediocre and single target, would rather just Call Lightning.

Regenerate Critical Wounds: As discussed.

 

So basically I end up with:

Level 1: Sunscortch (Maybe some entangle, but it's a bit cumbersome and not party friendly)

Level 2: Fire Trap (Sorry, but nothing else compares to a party friendly fireball that takes level 2 spell slots)

Level 3: Call Lightning (Summon Insects/Dispel Magic if you're expecting casters)

Level 4: Ice Storm (Maybe Free Action if I'm planning on Web/Entangle shenanigans)

 

Sure there's some okay alternatives but it feels a lot more restricted than other types of casters to me. Being a viable healer or more summoning spells would help out a bit.

[kreso]

Also it seems the regenerate spells themselves aren't implemented the same way as normal regeneration so I'm not even sure if haste affects them (although I think it does). Assuming it does, haste make a big improvement, but I don't know if it's a good idea to make a spell from one class so dependent on another from a different class just to be viable.

They're implemented as any other regeneration effect, haste does affect them, and it cannot be changed (well, it can with a bunch of delayed spells) but the haste is pretty clear in it's effect - doubles regen, doubles poison.

 

 

Sure it may heal more than the cleric version, but my point was that it's over such a long time that it's usually not relevant. Obviously having a good AC tank whom dodges most hits will get more benefit out of the spell, but the same applies to cleric heals as well. Most of the regeneration effect in those cases would probably be wasted on over-healing because it's lasting several minutes when very rarely do fights last that long. If you consider your other characters whom don't have stellar AC however, combat isn't slow for them. If a couple kobolds shoot some fire arrows in their direction they're dead in a round or two and that 1 hp every 6 seconds isn't very attractive at all. Iron Skins/Dragonplate/Ankheg come far later (not counting the cheesy free ankheg in nashkel, it's stupid that was ever there in the first place and I use item randomizer).

What you're talking about here is level 1 spell.

 

 

I dunno in BG1 levels I felt quite restricted in their playstyle.

I never had that feeling honestly. Damage spells - yes. Debuff - yes. Summons -yes. Buffs -yes. Is there more?

 

It's unfair to gauge the spell usefulness only in BG1.

In the same line of thinking one can say Wand of Fire is imbalanced (it is in BG1, but hardly in BG2), or Secret Word is useless (Spell Thrust does the same with AoE, so why pick a 4th level over 3rd, when no BG1 mage uses spell protection which can't be removed by Spell Thrust? ).

And this "Call lightning > Poison" really isn't true. You won't see a single mage (I assume you're playing SCS) immune to poison. You will see a lot using Minor Globe, making CL useless.

CL is better vs fighters, which are prone to failing the save, Poison tick damage otoh > casters.

[Jad]

What you're talking about here is level 1 spell.

The situation seemed the same for pretty much all of the BG1 for me. I felt the spells were too low impact and spread over too long of a duration to be worth memorizing. It's not going to go very far in keeping my casters alive and it's only a minor supplement ontop of cleric healing for my frontline, so why memorize over my other options.

 

I never had that feeling honestly. Damage spells - yes. Debuff - yes. Summons -yes. Buffs -yes. Is there more?

I guess that comes down to playstyle, I just felt like in most of those roles I'm better off with another class.

 

It's unfair to gauge the spell usefulness only in BG1.

In the same line of thinking one can say Wand of Fire is imbalanced (it is in BG1, but hardly in BG2), or Secret Word is useless (Spell Thrust does the same with AoE, so why pick a 4th level over 3rd, when no BG1 mage uses spell protection which can't be removed by Spell Thrust? ).

And this "Call lightning > Poison" really isn't true. You won't see a single mage (I assume you're playing SCS) immune to poison. You will see a lot using Minor Globe, making CL useless.

CL is better vs fighters, which are prone to failing the save, Poison tick damage otoh > casters.

Yeah, I accept that many of the spells are much more useful in BG2. BG1 is a significant part of the experience though and I think it's a good thing to strive for balance there as well. I'd personally be fine with Wand of Fire being nerfed or removed, it is overpowered but at least it has limited uses. As for secret word, you won't really even have access to it until near the end of BG1 and even so it's such a fundementally useful spell that it's still worth taking even if spell thrust does the same. Good point on Poison vs CL, both are offensive damage spells which is one area I think druids are exceptional at, I just feel that their versatility is inferior to other casters, especially with their healing now being less effective.

 

 

[Dakk]

Regarding regeneration-spells, I'm mostly with jad with them feeling underwhelming, more than anything else. Basically, without (self-imposed) rest restrictions, ultra long, ultra slow, single person health revival is meh.

[kreso]

I guess that comes down to playstyle, I just felt like in most of those roles I'm better off with another class.

I do agree here. Cleric is indeed an overall "better" choice for BG1 (Break Enchantment/Remove Paralysis are both godsent), and mage's Haste is probably better than any other buff in BG1 part. Things do change at higher levels - with insects (they now bypass MR and are a huge AoE debuff), Shambling Mounds, and some lovely damage spells there's little what a high leveled druid can't do, and his role gets more defined.