[Sug] stat requirement standardization for gear

[Gay Lord]

I had a suggestion for stat requirements for melee, missile, and armor that IMO would improve the game by making them more intuitive to players.

 

One of the problems with these requirements is that they vary from item to item with no apparent pattern, at least none that I've noticed (in vanilla anyway, haven't looked at IR). The logical approach would be to tie requirements to the weight of the item. While this may be logical, nobody has item weights memorized so in order to tell what Str an item needs, we have to look at the description every time. I think it would be much easier for us if the requirements for an item were tied to numbers all of us already know. This way we don't have to pull anything up to look at.

 

For melee items, what I suggest is to make the Str requirements be equal to the min damage plus max damage. Thus a dagger, doing 1-4, would need a 5 Str. A longsword would need a 9 Str and a greatsword (doing 2-12) would need 14 Str. Because most of us have weapon damage memorized (I assume), it would be easy to figure out what Str we need for any given weapon. From a game mechanic perspective, I think it's balanced because you need higher Str for more damaging weapons. It would provide a simple formula, easily understood and remembered, and easily calculated. If these numbers seem too low, then the formula could be adjusted to add N to the total. For example, you could say formula +2, so a dagger would need 7 Str and a longsword 11 Str, etc.

 

Missile weapons would follow the same formula, only with Dex.

 

For armor, I recommend a Con requirement equal to 10 + the base armor bonus. Thus, leather (+2 armor) would need a 12 Con to wear, while Chain (+5 armor) would need 15.

 

IIRC, either vanilla or a mod requires certain Int to use a wand. I think it would be nice if combat gear had a simple, straightforward system for stat requirements.

[Demivrgvs]

One of the problems with these requirements is that they vary from item to item with no apparent pattern, at least none that I've noticed (in vanilla anyway, haven't looked at IR). The logical approach would be to tie requirements to the weight of the item.

IR already does that. We have adjusted the weight values of all items in the game (vanilla stats were a real mess), and STR requirements are tied to that. Equipment made of special materials (scales, mithral, etc.) may weight less, and that is reflected by lower STR requirements, and various other things (e.g. a medium weight weapon made of mithral can be wielded as if it was light).

 

On as side note, if you encounter any item which apparently doesn't follow the above standardization let us Know and we'll handle it.

 

For melee items, what I suggest is to make the Str requirements be equal to the min damage plus max damage. Thus a dagger, doing 1-4, would need a 5 Str. A longsword would need a 9 Str and a greatsword (doing 2-12) would need 14 Str. Because most of us have weapon damage memorized (I assume), it would be easy to figure out what Str we need for any given weapon.

Well, I assume most of you know which weapon is supposed to be heavier, don't you? The problem in vanilla was that weight values were inconsistent (apparently random sometimes), and with enchantment level affecting an item's weight you could end up with a full plate lighter than a leather armor, or with a greatsword lighter than a dagger.

 

Missile weapons would follow the same formula, only with Dex.

Mmm...it makes sense, but in this case DEX requirement would be very low anyway, to the point where it doesn't really matter much imo. To swing a greatsword you do need above average STR, else you can barely move it, but you don't need DEX to wield a bow, you need DEX to use it properly (DEX's to hit bonus/penalties handle that).

 

For armor, I recommend a Con requirement equal to 10 + the base armor bonus. Thus, leather (+2 armor) would need a 12 Con to wear, while Chain (+5 armor) would need 15.

As mentioned above, I don't want enchantment lvl to affect neither an armor's weight nor a weapon's speed (the latter is an "optional" component though). Only special materials or special abilities (e.g. a "hasted" weapon) should affect that.

 

IIRC, either vanilla or a mod requires certain Int to use a wand.

That happens to be IR.

[Salk]

I don't think this proposal makes any sense.

 

The enchanted weapons and armors, which canonically weigh less, would end up being the ones with highest STR requirements. Also why should weapons and armors have different stats as requirement? They should both use STR.

[Ardanis]

DEX - as Demi says, it affects the chance to hit, not the drawing.

 

STR - weapons differ not only by damage, but also by range and damage type. This also wouldn't work for heavy bows, which were known to deform archers' spines due to incredible strain.

 

CON - this makes sense. Anyone can lift a weight equal to his own, especially when it is distributed evenly across the body. But carry it for a long distance, that depends. STR req, however, should still remain.

[Gay Lord]

IR already does that. We have adjusted the weight values of all items in the game (vanilla stats were a real mess), and STR requirements are tied to that. Equipment made of special materials (scales, mithral, etc.) may weight less, and that is reflected by lower STR requirements, and various other things (e.g. a medium weight weapon made of mithral can be wielded as if it was light).

 

On as side note, if you encounter any item which apparently doesn't follow the above standardization let us Know and we'll handle it.

I didn't know that. I'm getting ready to start a new game very soon which includes IR, so I'll see how you've handled it. Last night I finished adding L1NPCs (took forEVER choosing proficiencies) and I had to redo it at one point as some of the weapons I chose required higher str than they had (notably Tiax and Viconia). I was comparing Str requirements from vanilla BG and handn't noticed anything in IR's readme about standardizing all the weapon Str requirements.

 

Mmm...it makes sense, but in this case DEX requirement would be very low anyway, to the point where it doesn't really matter much imo. To swing a greatsword you do need above average STR, else you can barely move it, but you don't need DEX to wield a bow, you need DEX to use it properly (DEX's to hit bonus/penalties handle that).

I was thinking as a simplified rule, since if you can't use it properly, then you shouldn't be wielding it (just to possibly gain some innate magic benefit, like fire resistance or something).

 

For armor, I recommend a Con requirement equal to 10 + the base armor bonus. Thus, leather (+2 armor) would need a 12 Con to wear, while Chain (+5 armor) would need 15.

As mentioned above, I don't want enchantment lvl to affect neither an armor's weight nor a weapon's speed (the latter is an "optional" component though). Only special materials or special abilities (e.g. a "hasted" weapon) should affect that.

In case I wasn't clear, enchantment level is excluded. I was basing this solely on the BASE armor bonus, not modified bonus. So ALL leathers would need 12 Con regardless of enchantment, and ALL chains would need 15 Con regardless of enchantment, etc. (possibly modified by exotic materials).

 

I don't think this proposal makes any sense.

 

The enchanted weapons and armors, which canonically weigh less, would end up being the ones with highest STR requirements. Also why should weapons and armors have different stats as requirement? They should both use STR.

As I said, enchantment would have no bearing on requirement. Values would be derived from the BASE stat of the item. I see weapons and armor as most definitely having different requirements.

 

Pick up a book. Hold it out at arm's length. Keep holding it. How quickly does your arm get tired? The book isn't a heavy object and you're not even doing anything with it like hitting monsters, yet your arm tires out. Smacking something hard with an object needs Str, yet continuing to act despite fatigue needs Con. Wearing a large metal object on your body and running away, jumping, climbing, running away, fighting, running away, carrying treasure or bodies and, oh yes, running away are very tiring activities. That's not a function of Str, but Con. Str reflects how much you can do at one time, but Con reflects how long you can do it

 

Weight lifting = Str

Marathon = Con

 

I've seen weightlifters drop out of aerobics routines because they became too tired. Str /= Con

[Salk]

First, where in your OP did you specify that your system uses the base stats of the items?

 

Said that, If you have to memorize the base item STR requirements since it applies also to magical weapons (which are going to be the vast majority), how does it become more intuitive over the present system? You even spoke of adding a modifier, to make it even less intuitive!

 

But most importantly, the weight is the only logical connection for weapons and armors requirements.

 

The weight of the armor has certainly to do with STR first because you need a certain muscular build in order to even move with it comfortably (in fact, the game refuses to put it on if the character's strength is insufficient, it doesn't ask you to remove it after having used it for 3 hours because your character's stamina is finished). If we follow your logic, weapons as well should have a CON requirement because after all I could be getting tired swinging my halberd around in a long fighting session. And not only that, it should apply to the whole inventory! Why, I am carrying 400lbs of stuff in my backpack, shouldn't that tire me?

 

So no, I still think this can't apply to BG. It'd be only logical if you had to introduce a double requirement system but that'd be just more counterintuitive than the vanilla system you're trying to fight (not to mention that within IR it became much less inconsistent).

[Gay Lord]

First, where in your OP did you specify that your system uses the base stats of the items?

 

"For armor, I recommend a Con requirement equal to 10 + the base armor bonus."

 

Said that, If you have to memorize the base item STR requirements since it applies also to magical weapons (which are going to be the vast majority), how does it become more intuitive over the present system? You even spoke of adding a modifier, to make it even less intuitive!

 

I think we're miscommunicating. My initial suggestion was to make it easy to for the player to know what the Str req for a random weapon would be WITHOUT having to look up the weapon in-game. Quick, do you know what Str a morningstar needs? How about a scimitar? Halberd? Do you know the Str needed for every weapon?

 

Yes, I agree that the logical approach is to base Str req on weapon weight, but here's another quick quiz. Can you answer RIGHT NOW how much each weapon weighs in the game? I'm guessing that you can't. Nor do you know the Str req for every weapon. That means the only way for you to find out is to load up BG and look at each weapon in-game. What I'm suggesting is a way to know WITHOUT having to look at the item in question.

 

Basing Str req on the base damage of a weapon allows gamers to figure out instantly what any given weapon needs using knowledge we already have. Short sword does 1-6? *Bam* I know it needs a 7 Str. Bastard sword does 1-10? *Bam* it needs 11 Str. That seems intuitive to me. Studded Leather improves AC by 3? *Bam* I know it needs 13 Con. I don't have the weight or Str requirements from BG memorized, but I do have weapon damage memorized from years of playing, as I assume everybody else does too, which is why I suggested using that for calculation.

 

Now perhaps this information isn't all that useful to other gamers. Perhaps others are fine just looking at items in-game to see what they need. I personally would find it useful to have a system to know what an item needs intuitively as opposed to having to memorize every item's requirements individually. But perhaps that's just me.

[F-man]

I don't have the weight or Str requirements from BG memorized, but I do have weapon damage memorized from years of playing, as I assume everybody else does too, which is why I suggested using that for calculation.

I don't remember weapon damages for several weapon types in bg2 as IR has a couple of times changed them and actually I belive that neither you remeber all the newest weapon damages in IR3.

[veyn]

I've never really found stat requirements on items to be a big restriction; I always considered them to be more of a flavour thing. For created characters, you are probably going to put decent strength score anyway (why would you do otherwise, considering that Str is one of the most useful stats?), in other situations you can just check in-game item descriptions.

 

Besides, if you find that you really need to know particular requirements outside of the game, you can always check that in Near Infinity or some similar tool.