Kit Revisions (Paladins)

[Kalindor]

Since I obviously haven't tested any of these, this is just theorymongering:

With your planned Paladin spell progression, will they ever have the capability of memorizing Dispel Magic and True Seeing? If so, the Inquisitor seems like it might be a little lackluster since they are giving up their ability to cast all other spells.

 

You could consider having the Undead Hunter's "Lay on Hands" as an offensive ability that can maim or annihilate undead ala a Chill Touch-like ability. The Undead Hunter's very touch would be anathema to undead.

 

I agree with the others that immunity to fear should be standard on all Paladins.

 

I am uncertain on how you are proposing Heroism will work. Are you thinking about it like an inspiration, where it affects party members?

 

I like the idea of Paladins being able to cast Cleric spells starting at level 4. It makes sense to me. However, I would be conceptually against Rangers having the same ability to cast Druid spells at level 4 as the Ranger seems to me to be more of a woodland scout/fighter as opposed to following a mystical creed.

 

If the Cavalier gets an additional 1/2 attack per round from Mastery then that kit is solid indeed. It does not need exclusive access to immunity to fear to be appealing.

[Ardanis]

I'm in minority, but I'll vote against fear immunity for all. It is a small thing, but I'm half comfortable with a lot of kits/classes having access to the same immunity. Especially considering that they can cast Resist Fear very soon.

[Demivrgvs]

True Paladin

I'd keep it (Aura of Protection) for True Paladin only. At least for now, testing may show better. Somehow I find them (on paper at least) bit behind Kits.

I don't know, considering the plan is to let only True Paladins retain spellcasting I was actually thinking kits were a bit behind.

 

Ideally I want Cavalier and UH to follow vanilla's Inquisitor in terms of "template". The Inquisitor was the kit losing the most (no Turn Undead, no Lay on Hands, no spellcasting) and still was a great class because he performed so well his role where other kits could not compete: destroy spellcasters.

 

Otoh the Undead Hunter losed almost nothing (only Lay on Hands) but while he was clearly superior to the poor True Paladin he was not on par with the other two kits imo. The other kits has useful immunities such as charm, fear or hold which are actually great against many undead creatures, and you can bet that against a lich I would prefer to have an Inquisitor in the party rather than an Undead Hunter. In the end, he wasn't even strictly better than other kits against undead imo, but clearly behind when not fighting undead (e.g. his immunity to level drain is his winning card, but it's pretty much useless outside of fighting vampires, whereas Cavalier and Inquisitor abilities and immunities are useful in much more situations).

 

Spellcasting

With your planned Paladin spell progression, will they ever have the capability of memorizing Dispel Magic and True Seeing? If so, the Inquisitor seems like it might be a little lackluster since they are giving up their ability to cast all other spells.

I'm not giving Paladins more spells, simply an earlier access. True Paladin will indeed have Dispel Magic (they already did in vanilla), but they will get it later, with less uses per day, and no caster level bonus. Only the Inquisitor will have True seeing instead.

 

This is my current spell progression table:

 

Revised 1   2   3   4
04	  1   0   0   0
05	  1   0   0   0 *
06	  2   0   0   0
07	  2   0   0   0 *
08	  2   1   0   0
09	  3   1   0   0
10	  3   2   0   0
11	  3   2   0   0 *
12	  3   2   1   0
13	  3   3   1   0
14	  3   3   2   0
15	  3   3   2   0 *
16	  3   3   2   1
17	  3   3   3   1
18	  3   3   3   2
19	  3   3   3   2 *
20	  3   3   3   3

 

 

I like the idea of Paladins being able to cast Cleric spells starting at level 4. It makes sense to me. However, I would be conceptually against Rangers having the same ability to cast Druid spells at level 4 as the Ranger seems to me to be more of a woodland scout/fighter as opposed to following a mystical creed.

Well, if it was just for me Rangers would have no spellcasting abilities at all (why the hell they made so many spellcasting classes?!?), but this is D&D, and thus the base True Ranger will indeed have them. That being said, its kits might not have them anymore (e.g. the Archer will surely not have spells anymore), and sooner or later either KR or SR will make sure Ranger's spell selection isn't the same used by Druids, but limited to animals and plants (aka no Ice Storm and similar spells).

 

Smite Evil

I'm not sure what you mean by different upgrades, do you plan to add a special effect (e.g. like blindness for example) in addition to magic damages?

Not necessarily, but I'm considering it yes.

 

Aura of Protection

Perhaps a bit improved? A paladin should have stronger aura than True Fighter.

I don't think Paladin's aura necessarily have to be a stronger effect, it's a kinda different thing. Fighter's tactical awareness isn't an "aura", and has a different, more offensive, application. Not to mention I initially wanted to limit it, or make it better, when used by multiple cooperative fighters (that's why it stacks, two fighters fighting alongside should perform better than a fighter and a non-warrior).

 

Immunity to fear

I'm really torn on this. I probably feel like Arda but it seems we are in clear minority.

 

Cavalier

I am uncertain on how you are proposing Heroism will work. Are you thinking about it like an inspiration, where it affects party members?

Yes. Conceptually the cavalier’s is a symbol of inspiration, technically the ability is a sort of Bless + Resist Fear.

 

Right now the idea was something like: +1 to thac0/dmg to allies (upgrades at xth level), remove fear effects and protect from it, no casting time (it's an innate), short duration (e.g. no more than 5 rounds).

 

If the Cavalier gets an additional 1/2 attack per round from Mastery then that kit is solid indeed. It does not need exclusive access to immunity to fear to be appealing.

Yes he gets the +1/2 apr too.

 

Undead Hunter

You could consider having the Undead Hunter's "Lay on Hands" as an offensive ability that can maim or annihilate undead ala a Chill Touch-like ability. The Undead Hunter's very touch would be anathema to undead.

I thought about it, but it's a lot of work for not much gain imo (unless you mean UH's LoH is only offensive and cannot be used to heal).

 

I'm mostly pondering between these solutions:

a) an upgrade to Smite Evil (increased damage vs. undead when using this ability)

b) a Disrupt Undead ability (add Disruptive effect to any weapon he's holding for limited time)

c) a separate, Sunscorch-like, ability with greater effect against undead but still usable in other situations

In theory I think b) is an absolute must, but I also fear it's best left for an HLA, else I really don't know what to give this class if they already get the best anti-undead ability before HLAs (giving them Sunray as HLA might be a little too much). Regarding a), my first thought was to simply give this kit Detect Undead and Smite Undead, but that would make this class really too much limited for my tastes, don't you agree?

[Kalindor]

I'm mostly pondering between these solutions:

a) an upgrade to Smite Evil (increased damage vs. undead when using this ability)

b) a Disrupt Undead ability (add Disruptive effect to any weapon he's holding for limited time)

c) a separate, Sunscorch-like, ability with greater effect against undead but still usable in other situations

In theory I think b) is an absolute must, but I also fear it's best left for an HLA, else I really don't know what to give this class if they already get the best anti-undead ability before HLAs (giving them Sunray as HLA might be a little too much). Regarding a), my first thought was to simply give this kit Detect Undead and Smite Undead, but that would make this class really too much limited for my tastes, don't you agree?

Since the Undead Hunter is a Paladin and not a Cleric, I think it makes the most sense to have their undead-slaying prowess in the form of melee attack enhancement or lay-on-hands enhancement as opposed to a spell-like ability such as Sunscorch/Sunray. I do not think it would be beyond the pale to give them Sunray as an HLA as Paladins can already summon Devas and such. I think the disruption ability would not be overpowered considering it is only useful against undead.

 

If I were designing the class, I would do something like the following:

 

Advantages:

-Lay on Hands ability can be used to harm undead for the amount it normally heals (no saving throw).

-Can use Sanctify Armor once per day starting at 2nd level. Additional uses of this ability are gained at levels 8 and 14.

-Can use Sanctify Weapon once per day starting at 5th level. Additional uses of this ability are gained at levels 5 and 10.

 

SANCTIFY ARMOR: For one turn, the Undead Hunter or target ally receives a +2 armor class bonus against undead and a +1 armor class bonus against demonic creatures. Undead that strike a character with Sanctified armor in melee must save vs. spells or receive 1D4 magical damage +1 per level of the Undead Hunter. At level 6, Sanctified armor also renders the wearer immune to the effects of paralysis and level drain. At level 9, the armor class bonuses improve to +4 against undead and +2 against demonic creatures.

 

SANCTIFY WEAPON: For 4 rounds, the Undead Hunter's melee weapons are treated as +5 for the purposes of determining whether an undead or demonic creature can be struck (not doable?). A Sanctified weapon receives a +3 bonus to hit rolls against undead and demonic creatures and deal an additional +5 magic damage to undead. At level 12, undead creatures struck by the Sanctified weapon must save vs. death at -2 or be destroyed.

 

Disadvantages:

-Cannot cast spells.

-Does not gain Aura of Protection.

[kreso]

Undead Hunter

IMO, the main problem with this nice kit lies in the fact that Undead are (apart Liches) generally pathetic in BG2. Cleric Turns them, Mages blast them, Fighters kill them faster than UHs etc. Alas, he needs some serious buffs to compete with both Cavalier and Inquisitor.

 

Advantages:

-Lay on Hands ability can be used to harm undead for the amount it normally heals (no saving throw).

I think it's quite a weak ability this way, to be honest.

 

-Can use Sanctify Armor once per day starting at 2nd level. Additional uses of this ability are gained at levels 8 and 14.

-Can use Sanctify Weapon once per day starting at 5th level. Additional uses of this ability are gained at levels 5 and 10.

 

These suggestions are great. Am not sure why UH would get bonuses vs demonic creatures (hint hint - total change of class - something like Scourge Hunter , but the overall idea is both nice and fitting.OTOH, thinking about it, why not? With changes to Cavalier, we need a paladin devoted to Demon slaying. Merge vanilla Cavalier & UH into one class. OP? Probably, just a suggestion. Make him loose Saving throws bonus.)

Also I'm not sure about "Sanctified Armor" lvl 6 ability - immunity to Level Drain and paralysis. Will he not be immune to it by default? It was his one and only advantage in vanilla.

 

.SANCTIFY WEAPON: For 4 rounds, the Undead Hunter's melee weapons are treated as +5 for the purposes of determining whether an undead or demonic creature can be struck (not doable?). A Sanctified weapon receives a +3 bonus to hit rolls against undead and demonic creatures and deal an additional +5 magic damage to undead. At level 12, undead creatures struck by the Sanctified weapon must save vs. death at -2 or be destroyed.

No for Weapon enchantment tweak (don't know if it's doable anyway)

Yes for others.

[Alexander-UckateJIb]

The World of Baldur's Gate has a ton of mages for Inquisitor, as for the Undead Hunter - he is...to niche. He really need to fight against demons too. There is nothing terrible with that

[Jarno Mikkola]

The World of Baldur's Gate has a tone of mages for Inquisitor, as for the Undead Hunter - he is...to niche. He really need to fight against demons too. There is nothing terrible with that

Erhm... then you would rename the kit as holy hunter or ??

[Kalindor]

The World of Baldur's Gate has a ton of mages for Inquisitor, as for the Undead Hunter - he is...to niche. He really need to fight against demons too. There is nothing terrible with that

That is the only reason I suggested a smaller bonus vs. demons.

 

*Edit: Also because I could conceptually see something that is "sanctified" being loathed by demons as well as undead. Kreso is correct in saying that this is outside the purview of an "undead hunter" though.

[Alexander-UckateJIb]

Then the kit must really be renamed somehow

[kreso]

Then the kit must really be renamed somehow

 

I searched online for mentions of paladin kits dealing with Undead. No mention of UH anywhere, just "Ghosthunter" which Demi already mentioned before, and it's quite bad imo.

Question : would it really be that bad to have a Paladin kit devoted to fighting really evil monsters? We have:

True class - Paladin Vulgaris, cast spells, your overall Paladin

Cavalier - martial arts Paladin, Knight in shining armor, excells in combat and inspiring others

Inquisitor - devoted to mages

- devoted to fighting creatures from Negative Plane and those from Nine Hells/Abyss

[Demivrgvs]

Undead Hunter

Since the Undead Hunter is a Paladin and not a Cleric, I think it makes the most sense to have their undead-slaying prowess in the form of melee attack enhancement or lay-on-hands enhancement as opposed to a spell-like ability such as Sunscorch/Sunray. I do not think it would be beyond the pale to give them Sunray as an HLA as Paladins can already summon Devas and such. I think the disruption ability would not be overpowered considering it is only useful against undead.

The "sunscorch-like" ability I was talking about wasn't the actual spell, I was just saying I'd prefer abilities which don't strictly work only against undead creatures, and sun-related spells such as Sunscorch were the perfect example imo. Unfortunately I see very little room to make the Undead Hunter really unique with PnP material, both AD&D and Pathfinder versions of this class are pretty much standard paladins with very slightly different abilities. Their implementation within BG would be something like this:

 

01: +2 bonus to all saves, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day
02: Immunity to paralysis, Lay on Hands 1/day
03: Turn Undead
04: 1st lvl spells, Smite Evil 2/day
05: Immunity to level drain
06:
07: +1/2 apr
08: 2nd lvl spells, Smite Evil 3/day
09:
10: Disrupt Undead, Lay on Hands 2/day
11: Aura of Life
12: 3rd lvl spells, Smite Evil 4/day
13: +1/2 apr
14: Aura of Life
15:
16: 4th lvl spells, Smite Evil 5/day
17: Aura of Life

Where:

- Smite Evil: deals additional damage vs. evil creature, even more to undead creatures

- Lay on Hands: at xth level UH's LoH ability also cures paralysis and level drain

- Disrupt Undead: undead creatures hit by UH's Smite Evil must save vs. spell or be disrupted

- Aura of Life: not sure, my take on this would be an aura which weakens undead creatures and protect allies from them (e.g. ProUndead +2 AC/saves effect), but if possible I'd like something which can still have some usefulness even when not fighting undead (even if reduced)

 

If I were designing the class, I would do something like the following:

 

Advantages:

-Lay on Hands ability can be used to harm undead for the amount it normally heals (no saving throw).

-Can use Sanctify Armor once per day starting at 2nd level. Additional uses of this ability are gained at levels 8 and 14.

-Can use Sanctify Weapon once per day starting at 5th level. Additional uses of this ability are gained at levels 5 and 10.

 

SANCTIFY ARMOR: For one turn, the Undead Hunter or target ally receives a +2 armor class bonus against undead and a +1 armor class bonus against demonic creatures. Undead that strike a character with Sanctified armor in melee must save vs. spells or receive 1D4 magical damage +1 per level of the Undead Hunter. At level 6, Sanctified armor also renders the wearer immune to the effects of paralysis and level drain. At level 9, the armor class bonuses improve to +4 against undead and +2 against demonic creatures.

 

SANCTIFY WEAPON: For 4 rounds, the Undead Hunter's melee weapons are treated as +5 for the purposes of determining whether an undead or demonic creature can be struck (not doable?). A Sanctified weapon receives a +3 bonus to hit rolls against undead and demonic creatures and deal an additional +5 magic damage to undead. At level 12, undead creatures struck by the Sanctified weapon must save vs. death at -2 or be destroyed.

 

Disadvantages:

-Cannot cast spells.

-Does not gain Aura of Protection.

First thing, why are you mixing in demons? o.O True Paladins or Inquisitors are more suited for anti-demon abilities imo. Personally I would not change the class focus, and surely I would not change the kit name.

 

Enhancing a weapon enchantment lvl via spell is not doable. Other than that your suggested Sanctify Weapon is pretty much what I had in mind for UH's Smite Evil.

[Kalindor]

First thing, why are you mixing in demons? o.O True Paladins or Inquisitors are more suited for anti-demon abilities imo. Personally I would not change the class focus, and surely I would not change the kit name.

I don't think that adding a smaller bonus vs. demons changes the class's focus. You did say you want abilities that don't work only against undead. I agree with this and thought that a "sanctified" weapon or armor could conceivably be useful to a lesser extent against demons, so I added that in to provide more flexibility to the situations in which it could be employed. "vs. evil" bonuses are really the same thing, but can be used in almost any battle.

 

If the you think the Inquisitor is more suited to anti-demon abilities, then give one or two to the Inquisitor: I think he needs another bonus anyhow.

 

Enhancing a weapon enchantment lvl via spell is not doable. Other than that your suggested Sanctify Weapon is pretty much what I had in mind for UH's Smite Evil.

Cool.

 

What about Sanctify Armor? Is that not something that could be adapted somehow, or is it too unsupported by PnP to be part of KR?

[Demivrgvs]

First thing, why are you mixing in demons? o.O True Paladins or Inquisitors are more suited for anti-demon abilities imo. Personally I would not change the class focus, and surely I would not change the kit name.

I don't think that adding a smaller bonus vs. demons changes the class's focus. You did say you want abilities that don't work only against undead. I agree with this and thought that a "sanctified" weapon or armor could conceivably be useful to a lesser extent against demons, so I added that in to provide more flexibility to the situations in which it could be employed. "vs. evil" bonuses are really the same thing, but can be used in almost any battle.

Yeah, but "vs. evil" is standard for all paladins, whereas I don't know why the Undead Hunter should be better against demons than other paladins.

 

If the you think the Inquisitor is more suited to anti-demon abilities, then give one or two to the Inquisitor: I think he needs another bonus anyhow.

The idea was to make Inquisitor's Dispel Evil get a "banishing" upgrade (e.g at 10th lvl), taking inspiration from AD&D Dispel Evil.

 

What about Sanctify Armor? Is that not something that could be adapted somehow, or is it too unsupported by PnP to be part of KR?

Yeah, it's not a bad idea per se, but I prefer to have at least some tie to a PnP source. We have more liberty for HLAs imo.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Enhancing a weapon enchantment lvl via spell is not doable.

Well in a good manner perhaps but how about this... the kitted char can only use non enchanted weapons via usability flags set to all the enchanted weapons(item revision comes in hand... kinda). Then we add in a few kit excusive weapons and make the spell that supposed to create the special-enchanted weapon create a creature, it in turn takes the users weapon in current use and and which ever it is axe, sword etc replaces it with the same kind of a weapon... sorta like a blacksmith but using ActionOverride(LastSummonerOf(Myself), plah) to give the item, and then to place it in his hand, and then the char DestroySelf() of course. Yey, it's doable.

[Kalindor]

I should mention that I think immunity to disease would be more appropriate on the Ranger and Druid than on the Paladin.