Kit Revisions (Paladins)

[Ardanis]

I'm assuming that in order to successfully hunt undead, UH must be able to channel positive energy. It already has its uses in a form of cure level drain, but unless I'm mistaken, an excess of positive energy is just as bad negative - maybe his aura can daze living creatures (-1 thaco), unless they make their save?

[Sanctifer]

I like the idea of sun-based "abilities", really suitable against undeads and still helping against other types of creatures...

The idea of "too much positive energy" is cool too !

And maybe something that has to do with Radiance ? (fire + positive energy)

It leads to something like a paladin of light, who could, I don't know, also burn things and blind them ?

 

 

Also, would it be OP if there was some type of HLA close to what a scroll of protection vs undead would do ? Nerfed and all but still ?

[Demivrgvs]

I should mention that I think immunity to disease would be more appropriate on the Ranger and Druid than on the Paladin.

I could probably agree, but paladins have always been immune to diseases.

 

I'm assuming that in order to successfully hunt undead, UH must be able to channel positive energy. It already has its uses in a form of cure level drain, but unless I'm mistaken, an excess of positive energy is just as bad negative - maybe his aura can daze living creatures (-1 thaco), unless they make their save?

I do thought about a Positive Energy Burst ability, though within PnP such ability "only" damages undead and heals living creatures. The former slightly overlaps with Turn Undead (but allows the UH to damage those cretures too powerful to be turned) while the latter probably suit a cleric more. Still, with few adjustments this ability could probably work, and it might be more fitting than my "sun-related" ideas if we want the UH's concept to remain that of a grim, quiet loner rather than a radiant servant of Lathander.

 

Btw, I forgot about the Hunter of the Dead 3E Prc, which is indeed very similar to our UH.

 

I like the idea of sun-based "abilities", really suitable against undeads and still helping against other types of creatures...

The idea of "too much positive energy" is cool too !

And maybe something that has to do with Radiance ? (fire + positive energy)

It leads to something like a paladin of light, who could, I don't know, also burn things and blind them ?

Yep, I was more or less thinking about all those things. The main problem with these instead is that they'd probably suit a Morninglord of Lathander much more.

 

Also, would it be OP if there was some type of HLA close to what a scroll of protection vs undead would do ? Nerfed and all but still ?

Well, vanilla's ProUndead scroll was ridiculously broken. If you mean something like "heavy anti-undead protections" yes, but "unable to be detected and targeted" no.

[Galsic]

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason why you don't seem to be considering poleaxes or even spears in place of lances for cavaliers? I guess I can see keeping their masteries in one-handed weapons (to better fit your possible free pip in sword and shield style).

[Demivrgvs]

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason why you don't seem to be considering poleaxes or even spears in place of lances for cavaliers? I guess I can see keeping their masteries in one-handed weapons (to better fit your possible free pip in sword and shield style).

As you guess It's mostly because of the "cavaliers should wield a shield" thing, but also because only the spear would still fit as a knight's weapon. The halberd cannot be used when mounting, and was a guardsman's weapon.

[Demivrgvs]

I've heavily updated the first post but I still have tons of doubts.

 

P.S I've posted full descriptions of kits with the "class feature" template to see how they would look like in place of vanilla's "advantages & disadvantages". I'm not sure of it too, mostly because I feel a separate entry for armor/weapon proficiencies might be necessary to make this solution viable.

 

True Paladin

Other than refining the values of each ability (e.g. how much damage Smite Evil does) the class more or less look fine. I'm simply having huge troubles at finding a class progression template which suit the base class and can be shared by the three kits as well. Right now it would look like this:

01: +2 bonus to all saves, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day
02: Immunity to fear
03: Turn Undead, Lay on Hands 1/day
04: 1st lvl spells, Smite Evil 2/day
05: Immunity to disease
06: Lay on Hands 2/day (cure disease)
07: +1/2 apr
08: 2nd lvl spells, Smite Evil 3/day
09: Lay on Hands 3/day (cure poison)
10: Great Smiting
11: Aura of Protection (evil opponents get -1 to hit)
12: 3rd lvl spells, Smite Evil 4/day
13: +1/2 apr
14: Aura of Protection (evil opponents get -1 to dmg)
15:
16: 4th lvl spells, Smite Evil 5/day
17: Aura of Protection (allies get +1 to all saves)

 

Cavalier

Even more doubts here, starting from the fact that right now until this kit gets at 3rd level it is identical to the base class, and I guess that's not a good thing. I was thinking to give him his own modified Smite Evil (e.g. Pathfinder's Challenge), but I don't see how.

 

Inquisitor

This might be fine.

 

Undead Hunter

For some reason it still doesn't convince me...

[Galsic]

As you guess It's mostly because of the "cavaliers should wield a shield" thing, but also because only the spear would still fit as a knight's weapon.

 

Alright, I can accept that.

 

Even more doubts here, starting from the fact that right now until [the cavalier] gets at 3rd level it is identical to the base class, and I guess that's not a good thing.

 

Does this figure in the suggested automatic pip in sword & shield style? If not, then that might at least be a good start, cuz, y'know, "cavaliers should wield a shield" thing =D . And it's not like rangers don't start with two in two-weapon style or anything, right?

[Ardanis]

Yes for Cavaliers getting ** in sword and shield style.

 

 

Also, maybe kits' auras should be merged with their 4th level X/day ability? Cavaliers project aura of fearlessness, UHs - positive energy, Inquisitors - dispel illusions.

[Galsic]

Yeah, I think the ** in sword and shield style might very well be all that's needed to complete the Cavalier quite nicely.

 

Inquisitor looks good to me, too.

 

Undead Hunter looks a bit less consistently useful than the others, but considering how much better he/she will (presumably) be against undead, I think I can accept that trade-off. That said, I don't recall any area after the Forest of Mir that features a significant population of undead. Hmmm...

[kreso]

As you guess It's mostly because of the "cavaliers should wield a shield" thing, but also because only the spear would still fit as a knight's weapon.

 

Alright, I can accept that.

 

Even more doubts here, starting from the fact that right now until [the cavalier] gets at 3rd level it is identical to the base class, and I guess that's not a good thing.

 

Does this figure in the suggested automatic pip in sword & shield style? If not, then that might at least be a good start, cuz, y'know, "cavaliers should wield a shield" thing =D . And it's not like rangers don't start with two in two-weapon style or anything, right?

 

Agreed. Sword&Shield style definitely comes in handy in BG1.

 

P.S.

On a side note, why are Inquisitors immune to Hold? It doesn't seem appropriate for Inquisitor to be immune to Ghoul touch, for example. I was thinking that a +2 save vs Spell bonus could be more beneficial, especially in the long run.

[Demivrgvs]

Cavalier

Does this figure in the suggested automatic pip in sword & shield style? If not, then that might at least be a good start, cuz, y'know, "cavaliers should wield a shield" thing =D . And it's not like rangers don't start with two in two-weapon style or anything, right?

Well, if we all agree on this (and it seems so) fine with me.

 

Pratically at 1st level the Cavalier gives up ranged combat (remember he "cannot use missile weapons") but his basic training makes him good at shielding himself against ranged attackers who might try to exploit his melee-only weakness (e.g. archers with faster movement rate). It makes sense.

 

Inquisitor

On a side note, why are Inquisitors immune to Hold? It doesn't seem appropriate for Inquisitor to be immune to Ghoul touch, for example. I was thinking that a +2 save vs Spell bonus could be more beneficial, especially in the long run.

In theory the Inquisitor should only be immune to mind-affecting hold effects, such as Hold Person, and not to paralysis from a ghoul's touch.

 

The +x to saves vs. mind affecting spells makes sense, though it actually is a Cavalier thing in PnP. I'll think about it.

 

Undead Hunter

Undead Hunter looks a bit less consistently useful than the others, but considering how much better he/she will (presumably) be against undead, I think I can accept that trade-off. That said, I don't recall any area after the Forest of Mir that features a significant population of undead. Hmmm...

That's my main issue with the UH, he is too heavily specialized imo, but I guess the same could be said about a few other kits, such as the Assassin. The Inquisitor is heavily specialized too, but he is lucky because BG is full of powerful spellcasters. I guess the real problem with the UH might actually be that vanilla BG doesn't make undead creatures as threatening as they should be (other than spellcasting ones). BG2 in particular has plenty of encounters where the UH could shine (undead play a huge role there with Bodhi playing as a co-boss for the entire game), but in most of those encounters other kits performed almost as well as this kit (or better in case of liches).

 

Paladin Auras

Also, maybe kits' auras should be merged with their 4th level X/day ability? Cavaliers project aura of fearlessness, UHs - positive energy, Inquisitors - dispel illusions.

I've thought about it, but it actually complicates everything imo.

[Galsic]

Undead Hunter

I, for one, wouldn't mind it if Positive Energy Burst provided a small amount of healing on top of its primary anti-undead effect, perhaps something like 2hp/3lvls (up to 14hp at lvl19) or 3hp/4lvls (up to 15hp at lvl17). Something like Ardanis' daze effect wouldn't hurt, either, if, y'know, you want this kit to be more versatile.

 

Also, I'm thinkin' undead are pretty damned unsettling by their very nature, and therefore, by extension, an opponent who is reputed to hunt down undead on a regular basis can be even more unnerving. Perhaps a HLA upgrade can reflect this (more attack penalties or even save vs. whatevah or run in fear). Just a suggestion.

 

And just in case your concept of an UH being a "grim and quiet loner" is precluding any ideas you might otherwise use, it might be useful to keep in mind it's a paladin kit. With a charisma of 17-18 even. Hell, he might even need a brighter disposition just to keep such a grim calling from getting the better of him psychologically.

 

Edit: Haha, my maths were all wrong.

[Demivrgvs]

Undead Hunter

This is by far the kit which is making my work harder, pretty much as Wizard Slayer once did for fighters. I'll explain more below.

 

I, for one, wouldn't mind it if Positive Energy Burst provided a small amount of healing on top of its primary anti-undead effect, perhaps something like 2hp/3lvls (up to 14hp at lvl19) or 3hp/4lvls (up to 15hp at lvl17).

Yes, I do thought about it. I don't know why in PnP the burst of positive energy can only either heal living creatures or damage undead, but not do both at the same time. I might be too much zealous but my issue with such a change is that we would end up with an ability much more suited to a cleric, rather than a paladin, am I wrong?

 

Something like Ardanis' daze effect wouldn't hurt, either, if, y'know, you want this kit to be more versatile.

I know it would be good but it has zero connection with PnP.

 

Also, I'm thinkin' undead are pretty damned unsettling by their very nature, and therefore, by extension, an opponent who is reputed to hunt down undead on a regular basis can be even more unnerving. Perhaps a HLA upgrade can reflect this (more attack penalties or even save vs. whatevah or run in fear). Just a suggestion.

 

And just in case your concept of an UH being a "grim and quiet loner" is precluding any ideas you might otherwise use, it might be useful to keep in mind it's a paladin kit. With a charisma of 17-18 even. Hell, he might even need a brighter disposition just to keep such a grim calling from getting the better of him psychologically.

This is the only kit where the concept itself isn't written in stone, and I'm actually not sure about keeping the "grim and quiet loner" concept exactly because it might fit best a fighter-like vampire slayer, but not a paladin, who I guess is supposed to inspire his allies even in the darkest nights against the most terrifying creatures.

 

That is why yesterday I started again to put down ideas to make this kit more like a"radiant paladin" but while I was working on that I had a bad epiphany and I realized such change would make the kit overlap even more than it already does with the Morninglord of Lathander (a class which is supposed to be the master of light-based abilities and heavily focused on healing and anti-undead roles). If you ask me, making this two kits very distinct is even harder than what I had to do for Barbarian and Berserker. Do you think there's enough room for both kits sharing pretty much identical roles?

 

I was so desperate that for a moment I dreamed of throwing away my own rules and change the UH into a Divine Hunter (name stolen from this Pathfinder archetype), turning it into a paladin focused on hunting down both demons and undead (as many of you has suggested before), and perhaps slightly more proficient with ranged weapons than standard paladins (e.g. getting a ranged version of Smite Evil). I fear that will remain a dream though, it's really a too heavy change, and I have to draw a line on how much I can change of the original material.

[Ardanis]

I don't know why in PnP the burst of positive energy can only either heal living creatures or damage undead, but not do both at the same time.

NWN2 isn't exactly PnP, but still you can do both there. Great way to level-up in Shadow Mulsantir, if you stuff Gann and Kaelyn both with Mass Heals

 

Do you think there's enough room for both kits sharing pretty much identical roles?

You know the answer, don't you now

 

I was so desperate that for a moment I dreamed of throwing away my own rules and change the UH into a Divine Hunter (name stolen from this Pathfinder archetype), turning it into a paladin focused on hunting down both demons and undead (as many of you has suggested before), and perhaps slightly more proficient with ranged weapons than standard paladins (e.g. getting a ranged version of Smite Evil). I fear that will remain a dream though, it's really a too heavy change, and I have to draw a line on how much I can change of the original material.

I say go for it. Between all the suggestions voiced, this is so far the only paladin kit I'd personally play.

[Jarno Mikkola]

That is why yesterday I started again... Do you think there's enough room for both kits sharing pretty much identical roles?

I see no point in this as the two classes have very different things going for them, the one is a magic user and the other is a warrior... there's enough room for sure... after all the player is not likely to have both without the level 1 NPCs mods NPC components.