Kit Revisions (Paladins)

[kreso]

That is why yesterday I started again to put down ideas to make this kit more like a"radiant paladin" but while I was working on that I had a bad epiphany and I realized such change would make the kit overlap even more than it already does with the Morninglord of Lathander (a class which is supposed to be the master of light-based abilities and heavily focused on healing and anti-undead roles). If you ask me, making this two kits very distinct is even harder than what I had to do for Barbarian and Berserker. Do you think there's enough room for both kits sharing pretty much identical roles?

Yes. Morninglord can do clerical duty as well, while UH can fight.

 

I was so desperate that for a moment I dreamed of throwing away my own rules and change the UH into a Divine Hunter (name stolen from this Pathfinder archetype), turning it into a paladin focused on hunting down both demons and undead (as many of you has suggested before), and perhaps slightly more proficient with ranged weapons than standard paladins (e.g. getting a ranged version of Smite Evil). I fear that will remain a dream though, it's really a too heavy change, and I have to draw a line on how much I can change of the original material.

I'd say yes. Cool name as well + he would be definitely useful for BG1 (tons of Undead), BG2 (more Undead) and ToB + WK (Demons). Don't drop this idea, I like it. If you want to make UH useful later on (in ToB, Undead are a laugh), then at least consider this option.

[Grammarsalad]

I like this divine hunter idea.

[Galsic]

If Wizard Slayers and Inquisitors can play the same role, why can't Morninglords and Undead Hunters. It's all about how they fulfill that role, which, depending on their design, can be quite different.

 

Divine Hunter

I won't say I'm against the idea; it does seem appealing, but I am somewhat less enthused about the Divine Hunter, mainly cuz I don't like to use warrior classes as ranged attackers unless I already have a bunch of other melee-types in my party. That's probably just me, though. Right now, it sounds as though, unless you change some stuff about the undead and how they're handled in the BG series, making the UH as useful as other kits might be more of a struggle (for you) than it's worth. If that's the case, then I'd say yes to the Divine Hunter, too, particularly if it gets things moving along with the paladin set.

[Demivrgvs]

Kits sharing same roles

If Wizard Slayers and Inquisitors can play the same role, why can't Morninglords and Undead Hunters. It's all about how they fulfill that role, which, depending on their design, can be quite different.

Well, Wizard Slayer and Inquisitor never co-existed well imo, and I think 99,9% of players has always considered the latter the true wizard slayer within BG, am I wrong? Within KR I'm actually striving to make WS and Inquisitor co-exist by heavily improving the former but it's not an easy task indeed, and I'm also trying to expand their roles in different ways (e.g. I'm thinking to give PnP Smite Heretic to the Inquisitor).

 

My issue with the Undead Hunter isn't just that the Morninglord share the same role (and outclasses him imo), but that they also share a too similar template: both are pretty much warrior-priests with almost identical very specific abilities. The UH is slightly more geared toward fighting ok, but he still has access to magical abilities such as Turn Undead (again, outclassed by Morninglord's one). That being said, the worst problem imo is that the UH is too heavily specialized and I'm finding myself unable to make him as appealing as the other paladins. Undead creatures are simply not threatening enough in vanilla imo (except liches, but as already said both WS and Inquisitor are better against them), and unlike the Morninglord, the Undead Hunter doesn't have a huge arsenal of divine spells to keep him versatile and appealing against non-undead.

 

Divine Hunter

I won't say I'm against the idea; it does seem appealing, but I am somewhat less enthused about the Divine Hunter, mainly cuz I don't like to use warrior classes as ranged attackers unless I already have a bunch of other melee-types in my party. That's probably just me, though. Right now, it sounds as though, unless you change some stuff about the undead and how they're handled in the BG series, making the UH as useful as other kits might be more of a struggle (for you) than it's worth. If that's the case, then I'd say yes to the Divine Hunter, too, particularly if it gets things moving along with the paladin set.

I really didn't expected anyone to approve this daring idea.

[kreso]

Is it possible within game engine to make UH Turn Undead as Cleric (not few levels behind)? He would still be short of a devoted Cleric (slow level progression for Paladins) but his Turning would still be more powerful than other Paladins?

I simply see no way for a class so devoted to Undead slaying to be ever much useful in BG world. They need more than that.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Divine Hunter...

I really didn't expected anyone to approve this daring idea.

So this is the Undead, and demons&devils... but what of werewolves and in some cases even the beholders, mindflayers ...

Yep, I am not saying he should be any better,,, and actually probably worse against orcs, ogres and dragons. But this should come naturally as he can't use the normal item repertoire.

[Demivrgvs]

Undead Hunter

Is it possible within game engine to make UH Turn Undead as Cleric (not few levels behind)? He would still be short of a devoted Cleric (slow level progression for Paladins) but his Turning would still be more powerful than other Paladins?

Afaik no. The whole Turn Undead thing seems completely hardcoded.

 

I simply see no way for a class so devoted to Undead slaying to be ever much useful in BG world. They need more than that.

That is exactly my point. If we have to stick with an anti-undead only kit, then the only way this class can remain appealing is to keep it as a very simple variation over the base class (e.g. similar to vanilla and/or Pathfinder archetype). The more we specialize the kit as an anti-undead only class the more it becomes unappealing for the bigger part of the game.

 

So this is the Undead, and demons&devils... but what of werewolves and in some cases even the beholders, mindflayers ...

Yep, I am not saying he should be any better,,, and actually probably worse against orcs, ogres and dragons. But this should come naturally as he can't use the normal item repertoire.

Eh? I'm not following you...who can't use the normal item repertoire? Anyway, I just wanted to say the Divine Hunter could be both an Undead Hunter and a Demon Hunter (the latter never existed as an actual PnP class, except in the form of a the strange Fiend Slayer PrC in a very old Dragon Magazine), but he's not necessarily limited to hunting those evil creatures. Within Pathfinder this archetype simply is a "ranged paladin".

[kreso]

Undead Hunter

The whole Turn Undead thing seems completely hardcoded.

.........

 

....If we have to stick with an anti-undead only kit, then the only way this class can remain appealing is to keep it as a very simple variation over the base class (e.g. similar to vanilla and/or Pathfinder archetype). The more we specialize the kit as an anti-undead only class the more it becomes unappealing for the bigger part of the game.

True.

I found this for outsiders: it's a Ranger kit, however

http://www.giantitp....ad.php?t=214378

Also, here:

http://hastur.net/ab...ead_slayer.html again, not limited to Paladins

Last sentence says:

"This class could be rewritten to fight some other supernatural menace, such as outsiders, using pretty much the same rules."

[Mike1072]

I think it would be fine to have the Undead Hunter branch out to focus on other enemies if undead is too limiting. Maybe the anti-undead abilities could come first, then the anti-demon abilities could come later when they're more appropriate, etc. I wouldn't rename him to a Divine Hunter though, because that change makes it sound like he hunts divine things.

 

The bigger problem is that combat bonuses vs. these creatures would have a big overlap with the Cavalier's bonuses to combat in general. Right now you have the kits sacrificing magic to achieve their goals. Maybe one of them could focus a little more on magic, maybe become a defensive-oriented buffer?

[kreso]

I think it would be fine to have the Undead Hunter branch out to focus on other enemies if undead is too limiting. Maybe the anti-undead abilities could come first, then the anti-demon abilities could come later when they're more appropriate, etc.

Like it.

The bigger problem is that combat bonuses vs. these creatures would have a big overlap with the Cavalier's bonuses to combat in general. Right now you have the kits sacrificing magic to achieve their goals. Maybe one of them could focus a little more on magic, maybe become a defensive-oriented buffer?

I think a fine distiction can be made with kit immunities (Cavalier - Fear, Poison / UH - Level Drain, Hold ----- I'm not sure about these however.). Cavaliers also get +++ in a weapon, which grants 1/2 extra attack and is always a boon, even vs.Human enemies. I also like the idea od UH becoming a bit more "magical". I don't think UH's (or whatever name they get) should have damage bonuses vs Demons or Undead (I think it doesn't work properly with Bane weapons). However, things such as Banish, Disrupt etc. could probably be implemented, and would indeed be useful.

Thing is, Cavalier will find use in many battles. Ditto Inquisitor. True Paladin will be 1/2 Cleric as well. With SR, even such low level spells are useful. UH needs buffs.

I don't think I'd pick him (other than for RP purposes) even if he could blast all Undead just by looking at them from level 1.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Eh? I'm not following you...who can't use the normal item repertoire?

Good... :whistle:

But what of the other unnatural beasts ?

The typical vs. werewolves enhancement would surely come handy at say level 5, in BG1 areas.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to say the Divine Hunter could be both an Undead Hunter and a Demon Hunter (the latter never existed as an actual PnP class, except in the form of a the strange Fiend Slayer PrC in a very old Dragon Magazine), but he's not necessarily limited to hunting those evil creatures. Within Pathfinder this archetype simply is a "ranged paladin".

I agree on the first, but the second, erhm, ranged paladin always sound a bit on the wrong side, as a hunters presence usually just extends to the length of their weapons edge. Unless you are a Ranger of course.

 

As for the name, I would welcome the name change, as long as you won't make it to the dialog.tlk line, as things can go very wrong there.

The spellcasting gives a few options here, after all some kinds of area effect anti undead/demon/devil spells would probably suit the kit quite well. Especially if you go with the Spell Revisions summon HPs from PnP. And you might even go as far as checking for the component.

 

The bigger problem is that combat bonuses vs. these creatures would have a big overlap with the Cavalier's bonuses to combat in general. Right now you have the kits sacrificing magic to achieve their goals. Maybe one of them could focus a little more on magic, maybe become a defensive-oriented buffer?

Sounds like a job for Cavalier(a gentleman trained in arms and horsemanship ), it could be described as a warrior trained in arms and leadership.

Hmm, yes the cavalier was supposed to get a bonus against all demonic and draconic creature... but really there's also devils! And there's only one type of dragonic creature... well, the color doesn't set them that much apart. Yes, the vanilla spell is bugged, as the race.ids was set to zero for the cavalier bonus spell(spcl221), at least in my vanilla game it is(no fixpack, nor nothing else).

[Kalindor]

As Jarno mentioned, it might be a decent idea to let the Undead Hunter keep the Divine Spells and augment their normal Paladin spells with some high-level anti-undead Cleric spells. If you give them additional spells, the ability to disrupt undead with Smite Evil, and immunities to paralysis and level drain, that sounds differentiated enough from the regular Paladin in my eyes. Maybe give them no Lay on Hands and no Aura of Protection to compensate.

[Demivrgvs]

Undead Hunter

I think it would be fine to have the Undead Hunter branch out to focus on other enemies if undead is too limiting. Maybe the anti-undead abilities could come first, then the anti-demon abilities could come later when they're more appropriate, etc.

That's more or less what I tried to put down, and possibly without requiring a name change.

 

I wouldn't rename him to a Divine Hunter though, because that change makes it sound like he hunts divine things.

Wouldn't that be a Hunter of the Divine?

 

I would welcome the name change, as long as you won't make it to the dialog.tlk line, as things can go very wrong there.

In a vanilla game the only references to UH's name are the two strings for class name and class description, no other mention of the UH in the entire game.

 

The bigger problem is that combat bonuses vs. these creatures would have a big overlap with the Cavalier's bonuses to combat in general. Right now you have the kits sacrificing magic to achieve their goals. Maybe one of them could focus a little more on magic, maybe become a defensive-oriented buffer?

I had in mind things like Disrupt Undead, Banish and/or Exorcism rather than plain ranger-like bonuses.

 

As Jarno mentioned, it might be a decent idea to let the Undead Hunter keep the Divine Spells and augment their normal Paladin spells with some high-level anti-undead Cleric spells. If you give them additional spells, the ability to disrupt undead with Smite Evil, and immunities to paralysis and level drain, that sounds differentiated enough from the regular Paladin in my eyes. Maybe give them no Lay on Hands and no Aura of Protection to compensate.

If I make the UH focus on spells (which looks really fine per se), I would end up with a paladin kit even more similar to the Morninglord than before, that's one of the reasons I was trying to do the opposite.

 

On a side note, regarding anti-undead spells not normally available to True Paladins I can only imagine the UH getting Sunscorch (1st lvl spell) and Halt Undead (3rd level). I don't see anything else out there.

[Ardanis]

I wouldn't rename him to a Divine Hunter though, because that change makes it sound like he hunts divine things.

That's not what it sounded to me, but I agree the Divine Hunter sounds a little weird. Holy Hunter, maybe?

 

The bigger problem is that combat bonuses vs. these creatures would have a big overlap with the Cavalier's bonuses to combat in general. Right now you have the kits sacrificing magic to achieve their goals. Maybe one of them could focus a little more on magic, maybe become a defensive-oriented buffer?

If we focus on solid protections vs those creatures rather than to-hit bonuses against them, I think that's perfectly good.

[kreso]

If we focus on solid protections vs those creatures rather than to-hit bonuses against them, I think that's perfectly good.

I am not sure about this...Undead - Disease, Hold, Level Drain, Domination

Demons & Devils - Fear, Poison

Just how many immunities should a single kit get? Other Paladins are given 2. But I can't see which of the above would be more useful if this class is to tackle both Undead and Demons. I'd vote for Level Drain and Fear, but that's what Blackguards get in EE.