Unusability woes

[Demivrgvs]

I second everything aVENGER just said.

[Hurricane]

Regarding archers and beastmasters, obviously I'm with aVENGER as well, i.e. keep the vanilla flags, meaning that archers and beastmasters cannot use ankheg/dragon/ashen armor and both their descriptions should say "May not wear armor heavier than studded leather". This seems to be the consensus now. Nonetheless, I'd like to know where CamDawg ultimately comes down on this, since the extended usability for archers was his decision.

 

Regarding druids, I'm still leaning more towards restricting rather than allowing, due to the flags plus description of the Blue Dragon and Ashen armor. However:

BGII:EE QA is content to follow our lead here

Given that we are looking for a universal solution for BG2 + Enhanced Editions, I admit I'm uncomfortable with taking away the Ankheg armor from druids, and consequently I wouldn't mind going the other way as well if we properly adjust the druid's description and allow all non-metallic armors.

 

Let me visualize the changes the Fixpack would need to make to the items regarding the usability for druids. The default usability in vanilla ToB looks like this:

 

 

The two ways to correct this mess are:

 

Option 1: Consistently apply Blue Dragon / Ashen Scale usability to all animal armors

 

Option 2: Consistently implement druids' no-metal restriction

[Jarno Mikkola]

... Item flag / item description ...

What do these even mean ? As I could argue that the no heavier than "studded leather armor" actually means the actual armor weight, and as such as the items we talk about are all enchanted generally fall into a random place, as the normal Studded Leather weights 25 (LBs, implied value), Ankheg Plate is the exact weight in both game, Blue dragon plate has the weight of 20 but it says not usable by a druid, Gorgon plate has weight of 30 and cannot be used by a druid... Shuruppak's Plate does weight less(15) than the norm, but the description says not usable by druids, same goes the Mithril Chains... And Shadow Dragon Scale weights less, and is usable by all but mages... White Scale weights 15 ... I don't know if it's usable by druids, should be I think. The Red dragon armor weights 30, and doesn't say non usable by druids specifically, but it shouldn't be usable in my mind.

 

From the above, I would think that the ones that weight less than 25 have been specifically made with metals that the druids don't condone, while the others can be freely used ... so it makes sense that the druid can use Shadow Dragon, Ankheg, White Dragon etc like they could in the very original game after all.

If there's a need to actually change anything, it's there to remove the Fixpack influence if there is one on the druids and let the tweak pack have a lot of options, like allowing the druids to use the green Elven Chains etc.

[Hurricane]

Yeah, there's no point in looking to the actual item weights for help here. Obviously the phrase "May not wear armor heavier than ..." is an unforunate attempt to distinguish armor types, as is evident from the usability flags for all armor-restricted kits whose description uses this wording. It never had anything to do with the weights of the individual armors.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Obviously the phrase "May not wear armor heavier than ..." is an unforunate attempt to distinguish armor types, as is evident from the usability flags...

Really ? How so ? Are you sure it has anything to do with the nature and nothing to do with the weight of the armor ? As a matter of a fact, it says "weight" meaning the mass of the armor around the wearer... I would like to see you try performing surgery with a full plate armor on top of you... it talks nothing about the type of the armor or the metal... but those addons are probably due to the increased enchantment level due to the level increase of the game, which is also why there's kits too.

[Hurricane]

I'm sorry, I don't follow. The druid's description in BG2/ToB does not even contain that infamous "heavier than..." phrase, so why do the weights of those four armors even matter? All I'm looking at are the usability flags of the items and the item's descriptions listing or not listing druids as an excluded class.

[Hurricane]

Alright, no one else has been voicing any support for Option #1 after several months. Given that Option #2 has been more supported in this discussion, and seeing that Option #2 is also less intrusive because it only expands the druid's armor choices instead of reducing them, I conclude that the favored way to go is to allow druids to wear all non-metallic armor.

 

 

The previous consensus about archers and beastmasters has remained uncontested as well. Unless someone else likes to make a different case, I therefore think we can now wrap up this topic. Here is the current outcome:

 

1. Archers and beastmasters are restricted from wearing the Ankheg, Red Dragon, Blue Dragon, and Ashen armor, as per the vanilla implementation. The Fixpack mustn't change this. Both kits only need their descriptions altered to reflect these restrictions, i.e. "May not wear armor better than studded leather".

 

2. Druids are able to wear the Ankheg, Red Dragon, Blue Dragon, and Ashen armor, as per the underlying rule system. The Fixpack needs to change the vanilla implementation where necessary: Blue Dragon armor is already made usable, but Ashen armor is not. Additionally, the Fixpack should extend the druid's description to correctly reflect this, i.e. "May not wear any metal armor".

 

3. Given the expanded usability for druids, the Fixpack then has to restrict avengers from wearing the Ankheg, Red Dragon, Blue Dragon, and Ashen armor. Currently, this is only done for the Ankheg armor.

 

4. By developer intent, the White Dragon armor is usable by all classes except mages, monks, kensais, shapeshifters, and avengers. Accordingly, stalkers are able to wear it, as per the vanilla implementation. The Fixpack mustn't change this.

 

5. The decisions made here need to be carried over to both BG:EE and BGII:EE as well. As far as I can tell, the state of the Enhanced Editions regarding usability is basically Fixpack v10. Therefore, necessary changes include at least the archer flags, the White Dragon armor's stalker flag, the Ashen armor's druid flag, the avenger flags, the archer's description, and the druid's description.

[Salk]

Sounds all fine by me.

 

Hopefully there is still someone working on the Fixpack.

[CamDawg]

Alright, no one else has been voicing any support for Option #1 after several months. Given that Option #2 has been more supported in this discussion, and seeing that Option #2 is also less intrusive because it only expands the druid's armor choices instead of reducing them, I conclude that the favored way to go is to allow druids to wear all non-metallic armor.

 

 

The previous consensus about archers and beastmasters has remained uncontested as well. Unless someone else likes to make a different case, I therefore think we can now wrap up this topic. Here is the current outcome:

 

1. Archers and beastmasters are restricted from wearing the Ankheg, Red Dragon, Blue Dragon, and Ashen armor, as per the vanilla implementation. The Fixpack mustn't change this. Both kits only need their descriptions altered to reflect these restrictions, i.e. "May not wear armor better than studded leather".

 

2. Druids are able to wear the Ankheg, Red Dragon, Blue Dragon, and Ashen armor, as per the underlying rule system. The Fixpack needs to change the vanilla implementation where necessary: Blue Dragon armor is already made usable, but Ashen armor is not. Additionally, the Fixpack should extend the druid's description to correctly reflect this, i.e. "May not wear any metal armor".

 

3. Given the expanded usability for druids, the Fixpack then has to restrict avengers from wearing the Ankheg, Red Dragon, Blue Dragon, and Ashen armor. Currently, this is only done for the Ankheg armor.

 

4. By developer intent, the White Dragon armor is usable by all classes except mages, monks, kensais, shapeshifters, and avengers. Accordingly, stalkers are able to wear it, as per the vanilla implementation. The Fixpack mustn't change this.

 

5. The decisions made here need to be carried over to both BG:EE and BGII:EE as well. As far as I can tell, the state of the Enhanced Editions regarding usability is basically Fixpack v10. Therefore, necessary changes include at least the archer flags, the White Dragon armor's stalker flag, the Ashen armor's druid flag, the avenger flags, the archer's description, and the druid's description.

This is the model followed in v1 Beta 1.