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Kit Revisions (Thieves)


Demivrgvs

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Rogues have always been my favorite type of character but unfortunately I think that although certain combos with the thief class were extremely good, such as the Fighter/Thief, the Swash-Mage, not to mention the broken Kensai-Thief, vanilla's thieves were kinda lacking as stand alone classes, and poorly effective (for the later stages of the game in particular).

Thief
"Cunning, nimbleness, and stealth are the thief's hallmarks. Ever just one step ahead of danger, thieves bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor. Never knowing what to expect, they prepare for everything, becoming masters of a wide variety of skills, training themselves to be adept manipulators, agile acrobats, shadowy stalkers, expert trapmakers or masters of any of dozens of other professions or talents. Most of these rogues have a reputation for thievery but not all rogues are thieves and in Faerûn they are as often investigators, diplomats or envoys as spies, bandits and burglars.

Although it would be dishonest to say that their skills do not lend themselves well to a thief's lifestyle and thieves' guilds are found widely throughout the world, such as the powerful Shadow Thieves, whether they turn their talent against innocent passers-by and wealthy merchants or oppressors and monsters is a choice for each thief to make.

Thieves excel at moving about unseen and catching foes unaware, and tend to avoid head-to-head combat. Their varied skills and abilities allow them to be highly versatile, with great variations in expertise existing between different rogues. Most, however, excel in overcoming hindrances of all types, from unlocking doors and disarming traps to outwitting magical hazards and conning dull-witted opponents
."

Class Features:
- Rolls d6 for hit points.
- Can be proficient (+) with "any simple weapon" --> better description is needed
- Can use light armors.
- Can use magical devices.
- Can Backstab with a x2 multiplier. At level 5 and every other 4 levels the backstab multiplier is increased by 1, up to x5 at 13th level.
- At 1st lvl gains 40 points to distribute between Open Locks, Find/Remove Traps, Pick Pockets, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Set Traps and Detect Illusions skills. The thief gains 25 more points per level.
- At 1st level, can use Set Snare once per day. At level 6 and every other 5 levels the ability can be used an additional time per day.
- At 4th level, gains a repertoire of Dirty Tricks he can use once per day to perform various abilities. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.
- At 10th level, gains Smoke Bomb dirty trick.
- At 17th level can use Evasion 1/day

SET SNARE: Sets a trap within the target area which remains in the area until a creature comes within 15 feet of it. When this happens, the trap is triggered and fires arrows at every opponent within a 30 foot radius.
Lvl 1 - 2d8+5 missile damage
Lvl 11 - 2d8+5 missile damage; 2d6 poison dmg for 3 rounds (6d6 in total)
Lvl 16 - 3d8+5 missile; 4d8+2 fire
Lvl 21 - 3d8+5; 20 poison; save vs death at +4 or death

DIRTY TRICK: The thief has acquired a repertoire of feints, ruses, and various unsportsmanlike tactics that can come in handy in a fight.

DIRTY TRICK (ENSNARE): entangle a target within 10 feet for 1 round.

DIRTY TRICK (THROW SAND): blinds a target within 5 feet for 1 round.

DIRTY TRICK (SMOKE BOMB): the thief becomes invisible for 1 round.

Notes:
- Use Magic Device (already partially implemented within IR) will allow the thief to activate wands and read magical scrolls provided he meets the INT requirements. We can discuss the INT values, but as a general rule wands will require low INT values, while scrolls should have relatively high INT requirements to make sure not all thieves can read high level spells (but not too high or we may end up with NPCs mages or bards not able to read them). We might also decide that xth+ level spells cannot be read regardless of the thief's godly INT. I'd make this ability not available to kitted thieves (surely not Assassin and Bounty Hunter, I'm uncertain about the Swashbuckler) to stress out as usual that "non-kitted classes are the most versatile ones", and to provide the base class something unique to it.
- Ardanis made a quite impressive Trap Revisions mini mod back then, but I'm not sure I'd make such a huge revision a standard feature of KR because it complicates the whole trap system too much imo. If he wish so I'd gladly include it as an optional component while making the standard install just apply small refinements to the pre-existing Set Snare ability. Vanilla's Set Snare:

Lvl 1 - 2d8+5 missile damage
Lvl 11 - 2d8+5 missile damage; 2d6 poison dmg for 3 rounds (6d6 in total)
Lvl 16 - 3d8+5 missile; 4d8+2 fire
Lvl 21 - 3d8+5; 20 poison; save vs death at +4 or death

I've not yet worked on the actual numbers, let's just say we might add an intermediate upgrade at 6th level (as aVENGER did for RR's Bounty Hunter), and I'd personally not use things such as "fire dmg" on the standard trap (there's the Exploding Trap for that). On a lesser note, we'll have to discuss the standard trap effects and progression. For now I've kept vanilla's x/day progression and the traps could improve every time you get a new x/day use (as per vanilla and RR).
- Dirty Trick is obviously based on Pathfinder's Dirty Trick, implemented as a targeted ability (touch range but do not require a hit roll). It will offer multiple options to allow players to pick whichever they prefer depending on the situation (e.g. blind an Archer, entangle an enraged Berserker, etc.) and offer a more interesting gameplay.
- I'd like to add a sort of lesser Alchemy to allow the Thief to create things like Smoke Bomb, Grease Bomb or things like that (see here for tons of ideas). True potions and the original Alchemy HLA are probably better left to other classes such as Bards.
- As I've done for fighters I'd give to each kit early access to particularly appropriate HLAs at mid-high levels (e.g. 15th or 17th). If I had to pick between the few pre-existing HLAs I'd say Thief and Swashbuckelrs would get Evasion, Assassin would obviously get Assassination, and the Bounty Hunter one of the powerful HLA traps.


Assassin
"This is a killer trained in discreet and efficient murder, relying on anonymity and surprise to perform his task."

Advantages:
- Can Backstab with a x3 multiplier. At level 5 and every other 4 levels the backstab multiplier is increased by 1, up to x6 at level 13.
- At 4th level, can use Poison Weapon once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.

Disadvantages:
- Can only distribute 15 skill points per level into thieving skills.
- Cannot use magical devices.

SET SNARE:

POISON WEAPON:

Notes:
KR's Assassin is based upon the original AD&D Assassin and Pathfinder's Assassin. I really don't like instead that 3rd Edition gave it spellcasting features, and I have no intention of using spell-like abilities for this class.
- the Assassin should not have to wait 17th level to have a better Backstab multiplier than a plain Thief imo, thus I suggest having him start at x3 since 1st level. I'm still not sure instead if he should reach x7 at 17th level (instead of vanilla's 21th level), and I'm tempted to grant it via custom HLA.
- Poison Weapon will remain his other main feature, but I'll improve/refine it a little bit. I'm tempted to allow the use of different poison types, but upgrading the base one might be enough.
- I do think the Assassin should get improved saves vs death/poison compared to other rogue classes


Bounty Hunter
"This is a hunter of men, skilled in tracking quarry and bringing them back alive...whether for lawful authorities or underworld masters. Bounty Hunters are specially trained at their task and make fearsome opponents. They have honed their trap making abilities well beyond that of the average thief."

Advantages:
- At 1st level can use Set Special Snare once per day. At 6th level and every other 5 levels gains one extra use of this ability, up to 4 times per day at 16th level.
- At 4th level can use Paralytic Toxin once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.

Disadvantages:
- Can only distribute 20 skill points per level into thieving skills.
- Cannot use magical devices.

SET SNARE:

SET SPECIAL SNARE:

PARALYTIC TOXIN:

Notes:
My only true PnP source for this kit is the original AD&D Bounty Hunter, but it should be enough to shape the overall concept. The problem with this kit imo is that it kinda overlaps with the Stalker, but hopefully we can find enough ways to differentiate them.
- Set Special Snare will be revised similarly to Rogue Rebalancing
- this kit should get an ability based upon AD&D Herbalism, ...
- Tracking...


Swashbuckler
"This rogue is part acrobat, part swordsman and part wit: the epitome of charm and grace."

Advantages:
- Can specialize (++) in any bladed melee weapon available to Thieves
- At 1st level, gains a +1 bonus to hit with melee weapons, and +1 bonus to armor class. At level 5 and every other 4 levels, these bonuses increase by 1, up to +5 at 17th level.
- At 4th level can use Precise Strike once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot use the Backstab ability

SET SNARE:

PRECISE STRIKE:

Notes:
Within AD&D there was both a Fighter's kit and a Thief's kit version of this class. I'm taking inspiration from both, but I might mix in ideas from various other PnP sources such as 3E Swashbuckler PrC, and to a lesser extent the Duelist.
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Alchemy seems conceptually odd for the thief IMO. It seems like it would require study like you would expect from a mage, bard, or ranger.

 

2D8+5 damage for the snare is a lot for a level 1 character. I suppose that it is balanced since you must coax an enemy into stumbling upon it. Otherwise it might not be worth the effort.

 

I like what you have done with the Dirty Trick ability. Perhaps you could make Dirty Trick a targeted ability and make a "Dirty Fighting" HLA that passively gives a chance of inflicting Dirty Trick-like effects on hit.

 

*Edit: I seem like the biggest KR fanboy, repling within 20minutes of every update recently. I just like where this mod is going! :)

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Use Magic Device

Scrolls should use the standard INT requirement 9+spell level. Or was it 10?

PnP wizards are not allowed to cast high-level scrolls, if they have inadequate INT.

 

 

Traps Revisions

Agreed about making it optional.

 

 

Dirty Trick

I'm for targeted ability. If we want, we can use "ignore II" ToBEx's flag.

 

 

Alchemy

Agreed with Kalindor, wizards are better choice. As for new potions, there're few "unused" ones in vanilla, which could be changed into soemthing underrepresented.

 

 

Evasion

Swashbuckler seems a more reasonable candidate for it than a thief.

Maybe enhanced lock picking or trap disarming? I don't think the former can be done, but if we'll use passive trap detection, then a thief can receive more information about a trap set ahead - like instantly detecting its type, or doing so at increased range.

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Alchemy

Alchemy seems conceptually odd for the thief IMO. It seems like it would require study like you would expect from a mage, bard, or ranger.
I partially agree. I do agree most potions really doesn't fit a thief version of Alchemy. A Thief should indeed not be able to brew a Potion of Freedom or a Potion of Clarity, the Bard should, neither should he be able to create healing potions. Even the most crucial of all vanilla's options, Potion of Invisibility, should probably belong to a Wizard's Brew Potions feat rather than BG's Alchemy which I suppose was intended to simulate a Craft (alchemy) skill. The potions would fit the most probably are IR's Burning Oil, Potion of Explosions and the new ones I was hinting at (@Arda, I had no intention of making them replace pre-existing ones, but rather making them new thief-only tools).

 

That being said, isn't it better to make the best out of what we have instead of completely removing this ability? I fear removing it will actually make more players unhappy, and it's not like I have tons of much better ideas to replace it right now.

 

@Kalindor, regarding the Ranger, I was indeed thinking to suggest something like Herbalism, allowing them to create minor healing potions and antidotes. :D

 

Set Snare

2D8+5 damage for the snare is a lot for a level 1 character. I suppose that it is balanced since you must coax an enemy into stumbling upon it. Otherwise it might not be worth the effort.
I simply posted vanilla's values. First thing I would do is to make these traps allow a save vs. breath (which btw will be thief best save type within KR) to avoid or at least reduce the effects.

 

Dirty Trick

I like what you have done with the Dirty Trick ability. Perhaps you could make Dirty Trick a targeted ability and make a "Dirty Fighting" HLA that passively gives a chance of inflicting Dirty Trick-like effects on hit.
Interesting idea.

 

I'm for targeted ability. If we want, we can use "ignore II" ToBEx's flag.
Instinctively I'd say yes, but I'm not 100% sure. Dirty Trick should simulate things such as low blows, sand in the eyes, using cords to snare the target and similar things. If we do think such maneuvers aren't affected by partial concealment than yes, we can flag it to bypass II.

 

Evasion

Swashbuckler seems a more reasonable candidate for it than a thief.

Maybe enhanced lock picking or trap disarming? I don't think the former can be done, but if we'll use passive trap detection, then a thief can receive more information about a trap set ahead - like instantly detecting its type, or doing so at increased range.

Isn't Evasion one of the most iconic Thief abilities? Anyway, I was just sticking to vanilla's HLAs, else I could suggest one of the new ones for the Swashbuckler such as Slippery Mind or Crippling Strike.

 

@Arda, your passive trap detection scripts would be wonderful as a low level thief and barbarian feat (maybe ranger too?), but as an HLA it would be "too little and too late" imo.

 

Feedback

I seem like the biggest KR fanboy, repling within 20minutes of every update recently. I just like where this mod is going! :)
Ahaha, well I'm glad to have you around! :) Without some feedback I would not be able to understand if I'm at least going in the right direction or if I'm suggesting absurd things. :D
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Isn't Evasion one of the most iconic Thief abilities? Anyway, I was just sticking to vanilla's HLAs, else I could suggest one of the new ones for the Swashbuckler such as Slippery Mind or Crippling Strike.

 

@Arda, your passive trap detection scripts would be wonderful as a low level thief and barbarian feat (maybe ranger too?), but as an HLA it would be "too little and too late" imo.

Yes, but look from another angle - rogues have access to the following skills:

1) stealth

2) stealing

3) backstab

4) use magic device

5) perception

6) acrobatics

7) locks and traps

8) snares

 

Assassin specializes in 1 and 3, Swash - 6, BH - 8. This leaves 2, 4, 5 and 7 without a focus. Considering what the Thief is called, I'd expect him to specialize in the arts of skulduggery and expropriation.

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Isn't Evasion one of the most iconic Thief abilities? Anyway, I was just sticking to vanilla's HLAs, else I could suggest one of the new ones for the Swashbuckler such as Slippery Mind or Crippling Strike.

 

@Arda, your passive trap detection scripts would be wonderful as a low level thief and barbarian feat (maybe ranger too?), but as an HLA it would be "too little and too late" imo.

Yes, but look from another angle - rogues have access to the following skills:

1) stealth

2) stealing

3) backstab

4) use magic device

5) perception

6) acrobatics

7) locks and traps

8) snares

 

Assassin specializes in 1 and 3, Swash - 6, BH - 8. This leaves 2, 4, 5 and 7 without a focus. Considering what the Thief is called, I'd expect him to specialize in the arts of skulduggery and expropriation.

Bards sort of specialize in 2 and 4. I like the way you break this down.

 

I was not aware that traps could be actively detected without entering the mode. I would love such an ability, It could make sense on the Bounty Hunter, given their mastery of traps.

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I'd say bards specialize in UMD and Lore, stealing is not really their focus.

 

I was not aware that traps could be actively detected without entering the mode. I would love such an ability, It could make sense on the Bounty Hunter, given their mastery of traps.
Yeah, I haven't played BG1 in six years and forgot just about everything about its trap locations. And since I hated the prospect of having to enter the detection mode (which also doesn't detect them instantly), I came around with a player-friendly solution.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3725/auto-trap-detection

Completed the BG1 part of BGT with it, gameplay became far smoother than before.

 

What's constitutes the problem, is that I've successfully managed to delete the code entirely and need to write it from the scratch now :(

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Would it be desirable to have a separate alchemy HLA for each class that would open a store that would allow the player to "brew" potions by paying gold (to simulate the cost of the raw materials)?

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Passive Trap Detection

Considering what the Thief is called, I'd expect him to specialize in the arts of skulduggery and expropriation.
I'm just saying that while I do like the idea of a passive Find Trap system (as long as it takes the actual find traps % into account - non-thief classes such as the barbarian can have a % per level assigned much like ranger's stealth ability), but I expect such feat to be a low level ability, not an HLA. Don't you agree?

 

Alchemy

Would it be desirable to have a separate alchemy HLA for each class that would open a store that would allow the player to "brew" potions by paying gold (to simulate the cost of the raw materials)?
I do wrote down different potion lists for thieves and bards, and I was indeed tempted to propose adding a similar feature to mages (though spellcasters really doesn't need it imo). I do like the idea of requiring gold (as aVENGER did for RR and aTweaks Scribe Scrolls), but I'm pondering the possibility of limiting the x/day uses of such ability, both for balance and conceptual reasons (you shouldn't be able to stack tons of potions ignoring stores, and brewing potions should actually require quite some time).

 

Within AD&D Complete Thief Handbook the closest thing to Alchemy is the Herbalism non-weapon proficiency, which is "recommended" for both the Assassin and Bounty Hunter.

 

From AD&D Player's Handbook: "Those with herbalist knowledge can identify plants and fungus and prepare non-magical potions, poultices, powders, balms, salves, ointments, infusions, and plasters for medical and pseudo-medical purposes. They can also prepare natural plant poisons and purgatives."

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Passive Trap Detection

I expect such feat to be a low level ability, not an HLA. Don't you agree?

I empathize with the thought that it would be too late as an HLA. I recall being the most threatened by traps in areas like Durlag's Tower and Firewine Bridge. When you reach the heyday of HLAs in ToB, traps are no longer a major peril. You could set it up to where it is granted with level and make the particular level vary as a perk/penalty to thief kits. For example, you could grant passive trap detection to pure thieves at level 6, Bounty Hunters at level 2, Assassins and Shadow Dancers at level 10, and Swashbucklers never.

 

Agree that it obviously must use the character's skill level in find traps.

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Passive Trap Detection

Mmm, that's not exactly what I meant - all thieves are supposed (imo) to auto-detect at 1st level, but for the pure class thief I've suggested a unique bonus to the ability. Although I do have to agree that at 15th level you're already past the majority of random traps.

 

I have, however, played with randomized trap difficulty values, which I also recommend for an optional component. Sometimes I'd stumble upon a trap with too high difficulty to detect it with search mode - in this case the ability to detect its type without having to highlight it in red first might be handy.

 

 

 

Alchemy

I do like the idea of requiring gold (as aVENGER did for RR and aTweaks Scribe Scrolls), but I'm pondering the possibility of limiting the x/day uses of such ability, both for balance and conceptual reasons (you shouldn't be able to stack tons of potions ignoring stores, and brewing potions should actually require quite some time).
Can't deny you the reason :)
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I see, I misunderstood you. I still think you could withhold it as a disadvantage for the swashbuckler or the like. I am not sure what use the "Detect Traps" button will be, though.

 

Instead of using this as an HLA, which is admittedly lame, perhap you could have an HLA that also allows you to detect illusions automatically? :)

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Passive Trap Detection

I see, I misunderstood you. I still think you could withhold it as a disadvantage for the swashbuckler or the like. I am not sure what use the "Detect Traps" button will be, though.
Quoting Arda: "Whenever an active trap sees a PC within 15' range (half the vision radius), it displays "Trap Detected" string over self every 2-3 rounds. It doesn't become visible - i.e. red - only warns the player to pay attention here, so you still need to get your thief over there to detect it with the "disarm traps" skill. Once detected, the string changes to the trap's type, e.g. "Arrow Trap Detected" or "Fireball Ward Detected"."

 

So, the idea is that classes which have 'trap sense' in PnP (thieves and barbarians) can notice that something is amiss in front of them. They don't instantly know what exactly, but they are aware that the place is dangerous and more throughout examination is called for. --> Detect traps button is still needed. :)

 

Passive Detect Illusion

Instead of using this as an HLA, which is admittedly lame, perhap you could have an HLA that also allows you to detect illusions automatically? :)
Ehm...actually our plan was to give that to the Wizard Slayer. Again, by detect I mean only that, and not "dispel illusions". With vanilla's illusions it doesn't make much difference, but with SR clones and illusionary creatures (SR V4 will have quite a few) don't look as illusions by themselves (unlike vanilla where they appear with a glowing blue).
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Passive Detect Illusion ...

With vanilla's illusions it doesn't make much difference, but with SR clones and illusionary creatures (SR V4 will have quite a few) don't look as illusions by themselves (unlike vanilla where they appear with a glowing blue).

Erhm do you intent to add the fact that the illusanory werewolves in the Circus then should also have the effect ? As hitting them makes them corporeal and thus non-illusionary.
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I had an idea a while ago called, "Rogues bag of tricks". The idea was to allow the rogue (and, if I recall correctly, bards) to create a number of items that helped him in his endeavors and giving him some more versatility. He could create a single item per day at first level and got additional uses at higher levels and are only usable by rogues. I was even going to create a 'Gadgeteer' kit that got additional items that mimicked various spells. Also, importantly, the items only last a single day (fluff: they are delicate and will break or disintegrate. Alternatively, they could have a gold cost) Anyway, here are some examples:

 

-Impromptu lock picks

These flimsy lock picks have been constructed from bits of metal and scraps you have found lying around. Despite their humble origins, they are quite useful to skilled thieves for picking locks. They grant a +5% bonus (higher at higher levels) to pick locks skill while they last. (which is approximately 1 round)~

 

Smoke bomb

The ingredients of this clever device creates a plume of smoke which obscures the rogue for a single round allowing him a moment to escape combat when things get desperate. This device makes the rogue invisible for all intents and purposes for a single round~

 

(Note, tested so the invisibility is not long enough to allow the rogue to make an attack. It's basically an 'oh spit!' item when the rogue does a back stab and finds himself swarmed and/or heavily damaged. Found a nice graphic for it as well. My favorite item so far)

 

Caltrops

~These nasty little objects are designed so that no matter how they are thrown, they always land point up. The result is that whenever an enemy steps on them, he receives 1 point of piercing damage and must make a save against polymorph or have his speed reduced by 2 points for 1 round.~

 

Makeup kit

~You can apply this makeup to your face to highlight your best features raising your charisma modifier (and/or reputation) by 1 for 4 hours~

 

Other ideas:

 

Disguise kit: The idea was to create a disguise for pc's changing their reputation to 9-14 (useful for low rep/evil pc's) and their avatar to commoner, beggar or noble while worn. I gave up on it for conceptual reasons though because it would be odd to have dialogue triggered by a disguised pc. Disabling this trigger (if possible--I don't know) might too easily brake the story/game. It would be fun (though I wouldn't know how to do it) to allow the pc to beg for gold when wearing beggars garbs or order commoners around when dressed as a noble.

 

Crowbar: functions as a 'knock' spell. Higher level version of 'impromptu lock pick'(?)

 

I doubt I'll finish it so I figured I'd throw it out there

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