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Kit Revisions (Thieves)


Demivrgvs

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I had an idea a while ago called, "Rogues bag of tricks". The idea was to allow the rogue (and, if I recall correctly, bards) to create a number of items that helped him in his endeavors and giving him some more versatility. ...

- Impromptu lock picks

- Smoke bomb

- Caltrops

- Makeup kit

- Disguise kit

- Crowbar

I do thought about Smoke Bomb as part of Alchemy, and Caltrops as part of Set Snares, but I don't know if they'll be there in the end.

 

Lock picking tools make sense but they are kinda redundant imo (they are just like a plain +x% bonus), while the whole diguise matter can be cool in PnP but not so great for BG (it would require dedicated quests or scripts - as a +x to reputation it would just be a cheap way to get a discount in stores). I'm not sure what you had in mind for the crowbar instead, it sounds more like a true weapon rather than a gadget.

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I had an idea a while ago called, "Rogues bag of tricks". The idea was to allow the rogue (and, if I recall correctly, bards) to create a number of items that helped him in his endeavors and giving him some more versatility. ...

- Impromptu lock picks

- Smoke bomb

- Caltrops

- Makeup kit

- Disguise kit

- Crowbar

I do thought about Smoke Bomb as part of Alchemy, and Caltrops as part of Set Snares, but I don't know if they'll be there in the end.

 

Lock picking tools make sense but they are kinda redundant imo (they are just like a plain +x% bonus), while the whole diguise matter can be cool in PnP but not so great for BG (it would require dedicated quests or scripts - as a +x to reputation it would just be a cheap way to get a discount in stores). I'm not sure what you had in mind for the crowbar instead, it sounds more like a true weapon rather than a gadget.

 

I have the spl's somewhere.

 

Smoke bomb: I think you should add them to alchemy! I found it to be a very fun and useful item that wasn't especially overpowered.

 

Caltrops: I believe I used a grease spell template for the caltrops. I thought about traps but I didn't want to mess with them; beyond my ability. But that might work better.

 

Lock picks: I found them useful when my thief encountered a particularly difficult trap. The picks allowed him to give it an additional go. It was basically a specialized luck spell.

 

Makeup kit: Agreed. It was the poor man's friends. I'm not sure at the moment that there is a friends spell anymore (I mean SR). Anyway, the idea was to give the rogue something substantial and unique that gave them extra versatility (but, hopefully, not too powerful).

 

As for the crowbar, I hadn't made any decisions about it really. I mentioned the disguise kit only because I thought it was possible you could do something more with it.

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Really enjoying the discussions on these new kits. All I have to offer is this: I love the dirty trick idea, but conceptually (and even balance-wise) can't see why it should be restricted from theif kits. They even might have more claim to it IMO.

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Dirty trick seems more an improvised tactic and, the way I see it, the kits specialize in (and, therefore, would likely prefer to use) other more refined methods with which to deal with their targets. Pure class thieves have no such combat specialization, so I would say dirty trick fits them best. Balance-wise, well, I suppose that at least partly depends on what y'all plan for the kits (details plz? ^_^)

 

Btw, nothing would make me more excited to play the BG series again than this mod :) (along with your other revisions mods, of course).

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Really enjoying the discussions on these new kits. All I have to offer is this: I love the dirty trick idea, but conceptually (and even balance-wise) can't see why it should be restricted from theif kits. They even might have more claim to it IMO.

Dirty trick seems more an improvised tactic and, the way I see it, the kits specialize in (and, therefore, would likely prefer to use) other more refined methods with which to deal with their targets. Pure class thieves have no such combat specialization, so I would say dirty trick fits them best. Balance-wise, well, I suppose that at least partly depends on what y'all plan for the kits (details plz? ^_^)

I could have not explained it better than Galsic. :) Like he says Dirty Trick is an impromptu attack made to even the odds against more skilled fighters. The other kits simply has a different approach to the combat imo. Assassins and Bounty Hunters aren't "improvisers", they are trained professionals who tend to plan ahead their tactic (and use other methods such as poisons or traps to get the advantage), while the Swashbuckler is already exceptionally skilled in combat and probably doesn't need to perform improvised attacks to hold their own in battle.

 

Btw, nothing would make me more excited to play the BG series again than this mod :) (along with your other revisions mods, of course).
Thanks! :) I'll try to post thieves kits asap, but my priority right now is the next beta and paladins. ;)
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Assassins and Bounty Hunters aren't "improvisers", they are trained professionals who tend to plan ahead their tactic (and use other methods such as poisons or traps to get the advantage), while the Swashbuckler is already exceptionally skilled in combat and probably doesn't need to perform improvised attacks to hold their own in battle.

All this is true, Assassins and Bounty Hunters would prefer to disable or kill their opponents before the fight breaks out, but when going toe to toe would resort to whatever works - dirty tricks. I can hardly picture a Swashbuckler as an honourable fighter as well.

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The Swashbuckler strikes me as a dirty fighter as well.
Well, I can obviously agree, I was just saying that unlike the Thief the Swashbuckler has good combat skills. If we prefer them to keep Thief's Dirty Trick instead of getting something of their own fine with me, less work! :D
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D'artagnan was far less (if at all) a rogue than a soldier.

 

For me, this'll come down to balance. If the kits can play dirty and more, where will it leave the poor thief? As the guy who hangs in the back, shoots a few arrows, and waits to ply his trade outside of combat, I guess : / (even if he can do thief skills better than everyone else). I suppose I'd be cool with bh getting dirty trick, since he'll likely be no more capable of dealing with opponents if his traps fail, but the other two kits? I dunno...

 

I'll try to post thieves kits asap, but my priority right now is the next beta and paladins.

 

Fine by me. I'm eager to see what you plan on doing with all the classes and kits, so if paladins are next, bring 'em on! :)

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Has D'Artagnan ever done such a thing as to throw dirt into opponent's eyes?
I always confuse the Swashbucklers with the Duelist, am I the only one? :) The latter pretty much is a honorable Swashbuckler who would focus more on swordplay rather than roguish talents, and I guess guess D'Artagnan could fit into it.

 

Anyway, I was "working" on the beta and paladins but sounds like this topic deserves some time too. I'll try to update this topic as much as I can before going to sleep.

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Has D'Artagnan ever done such a thing as to throw dirt into opponent's eyes?
I always confuse the Swashbucklers with the Duelist, am I the only one? :) The latter pretty much is a honorable Swashbuckler who would focus more on swordplay rather than roguish talents, and I guess guess D'Artagnan could fit into it.

 

Anyway, I was "working" on the beta and paladins but sounds like this topic deserves some time too. I'll try to update this topic as much as I can before going to sleep.

 

Thumbs up!

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...

- Dirty Trick is the real new entry, which I consider the thief's version of Called Shots. The ability is obviously based on Pathfinder's Dirty Trick, but we have two ways to implement it:

1) as an 'on hit' additional effect

2) as a targeted ability (touch range but do not require a hit roll)

...

 

2 does seem better. He's not necessarily using his weapon (but dirt, cloths, etc.) Does this mean that one would be stuck with the 'casting' graphic? Not a huge deal. Just asking

 

Edit: 'Lesser alchemy'

 

Perhaps it doesn't have to be called alchemy(?)

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...

- Dirty Trick is the real new entry, which I consider the thief's version of Called Shots. The ability is obviously based on Pathfinder's Dirty Trick, but we have two ways to implement it:

1) as an 'on hit' additional effect

2) as a targeted ability (touch range but do not require a hit roll)

...

 

2 does seem better. He's not necessarily using his weapon (but dirt, cloths, etc.) Does this mean that one would be stuck with the 'casting' graphic? Not a huge deal. Just asking

 

Edit: 'Lesser alchemy'

 

Perhaps it doesn't have to be called alchemy(?)

I'm in my bed updating the first post right now, but it will take some time. :) Short answers:

- Dirty Trick will indeed be a targeted ability rather than a "on hit" ability

- In theory the ability is pretty much PnP Craft (Alchemy) skill, and I don't have much better ideas in mind right now. Otoh it could be simplier to rename vanilla's HLA instead, into something like Brew Potion. I ended up agreeing that only Bards (and eventually Wizards) should be able to create actual potions, whereas this Thief ability could be limited to "roguish gadgets" like Smoke Bomb. I guess it all depends on which "gadgets" will be created by the new ability.

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