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Kit Revisions (Thieves)


Demivrgvs

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Alchemy

 

- I do still think it shouldn't be called this because it just sounds too 'magicy' but it's a minor quip. I like the general idea though.

 

- Perhaps this skill could be expressed differently for each kit (though definitely not the swashbuckler). *Suggestions:

*Keep in mind these are just suggestions. Brainstorms produce a lot of jetsam

 

Trueclass: Can create a number of useful items and (maaaaybe--remember he's a generalist) mimic some of the other kits features: a weaker poison or paralytic toxin. Also; smoke bombs for quick escape; grease bombs to slow an enemy; flash-grenade-like bombs to disable an enemy; a bag o rats--summons a number of panicking rats that set off traps.

 

Assassin: Create unique and better poisons: poisons that stun; poisons that affect outsiders (well, probably impossible); an anti-toxin that removes poison (non-magically); burning venom--acid and poison dam; painful venom--was thinking spell failure but poison does that anyway, right(?)

 

Bounty Hunter: Black Lotus balm--btw, all coated on weapon or are perhaps unique traps (or both)--causes confusion; sleeping balm--causes unconsciousness; distilled agony--spell failure; other effects that can be reasonably considered herbalistic (ie non-magical)

 

Assassin

 

Love this: "...KR's Assassin is based upon the original AD&D Assassin and Pathfinder's Assassin. I really don't like instead that 3rd Edition gave it spellcasting features, and I have no intention of using spell-like abilities for this class...."

 

No matter what you do, I hope he has more than just better backstab and poison weapon. It would be nice if he could have some way of dealing with creatures that he is normally powerless against (undead, constructs, etc.). Perhaps he could have some sort of 'find weakness' ability that allows him to recognize vulnerabilities (even in constructs and corporal undead) for a short time giving him a substantial bonus to damage even against them. I recognize that these things aren't his specialty, but it would be nice if he was somewhat effective against them.

 

Definitely agree that he should be resistant to poisons.

 

Bounty Hunter

 

- Tracking (!) Did you tackle this monster! What about BGT, EE and (just throwing it out there) that TC shadow hand (IIRC-name?)? Perhaps you could ask the developers of that TC to write tracking dialogue for you. Just a suggestion but they'll be knee deep in each are as they create them anyway...

 

Also, very glad you're following RR (and pathfinder)

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Alchemy

- I do still think it shouldn't be called this because it just sounds too 'magicy' but it's a minor quip. I like the general idea though.

 

Agreed.

 

Trueclass: Can create a number of useful items and (maaaaybe--remember he's a generalist) mimic some of the other kits features: a weaker poison or paralytic toxin. Also; smoke bombs for quick escape; grease bombs to slow an enemy; flash-grenade-like bombs to disable an enemy; a bag o rats--summons a number of panicking rats that set off traps.

 

Assassin: Create unique and better poisons: poisons that stun; poisons that affect outsiders (well, probably impossible); an anti-toxin that removes poison (non-magically); burning venom--acid and poison dam; painful venom--was thinking spell failure but poison does that anyway, right(?)

 

Bounty Hunter: Black Lotus balm--btw, all coated on weapon or are perhaps unique traps (or both)--causes confusion; sleeping balm--causes unconsciousness; distilled agony--spell failure; other effects that can be reasonably considered herbalistic (ie non-magical)

I recall a discussion about this at some point but I seem to remember Demi saying it would be too much effort for one skill.

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I falled asleep before finishing to type everything. :D Anyway...

 

Alchemy

As I said, this ability is actually PnP Craft (alchemy) skill, much like Set Snare actually is Craft (trapmaking). Within AD&D Assassin and Bounty Hunter were both getting Herbalism to create deadly poisons and non-lethal disabling poisons respectively.

 

What you are suggesting is good but I fear it would heavily overlap with the pre-existing abilities of the classes (e.g. allow the Assassin to create tons of powerful poisons and his standard Poison Weapon ability becomes redundant; allow the Thief to create too many disabling effects and Dirty Trick becomes overshadowed). Not to mention that as Kalindor says, creating an ability which actually includes 9+ other abilities, and balance them all, is a huge task.

 

 

Assassin

No matter what you do, I hope he has more than just better backstab and poison weapon.
I'm not sure each kit needs tons of unique features as they are kits, not new classes, but yeah, I yeah I plan to have more than just those two features. For example:

- instead of simply removing it we might replacing vanilla's +1 hit/dmg with the ability to specialize in a limited number of appropriate weapons (daggers, short swords, darts and light xbow)

- at xth level the Assassin could get something like Pathfinder's Quiet Death (aka remain or become invisible after a killing blow)

 

It would be nice if he could have some way of dealing with creatures that he is normally powerless against (undead, constructs, etc.).
Afaik within BG undead are not immune to criticals (something I like of Pathfinder over 3E). That being said, even if I do want every class to remain somewhat useful in every situation, for obvious reasons many classes are not suited to certain encounters (e.g. mages and thieves vs. golems) but in exchange they usually are exceptionally useful in other circumstances (e.g. the Assassin really dominates vs humanoids imo).
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- at xth level the Assassin could get something like Pathfinder's Quiet Death (aka remain or become invisible after a killing blow)

I never thought of this, but it is a very nice idea. Perhaps more suitable for an HLA?

 

For another thematically appropriate bonus, you could consider a consider a critical hit range bonus. I fear that this kit may become overly-appealing if we're not careful.

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Assassin

I see no harm in letting them to select from a spell menu which kind of poison they want to apply to their weapon. They don't need to create bottled poisons.

 

- instead of simply removing it we might replacing vanilla's +1 hit/dmg with the ability to specialize in a limited number of appropriate weapons (daggers, short swords, darts and light xbow)
ADnD Assassins can use any weapon. I'd go with that instead, rather shifting focus onto specific weapon types. This should also give them a way to deal with otherwise resistant undead - pick a flail and voila.

 

- at xth level the Assassin could get something like Pathfinder's Quiet Death (aka remain or become invisible after a killing blow)
Totally :D

 

For another thematically appropriate bonus, you could consider a consider a critical hit range bonus. I fear that this kit may become overly-appealing if we're not careful.

Yes to it.
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1) Can become proficient with any weapon

2) Can coat his weapons with various poisons

3) At 1st level gains +1 backstab multiplier

4) At Xth level can use Death Attack

5) At Yth level becomes invisible for x rounds after landing a killing blow

6) At Zth level gains +5% critical

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1) Can become proficient with any weapon

2) Can coat his weapons with various poisons

3) At 1st level gains +1 backstab multiplier

4) At Xth level can use Death Attack

5) At Yth level becomes invisible for x rounds after landing a killing blow

6) At Zth level gains +5% critical

1) An Assassin swinging a heavy flail? :( It might be just me but I'd prefer him to be great with daggers rather than being able to wield a greatsword.

2) You like to make my life harder, don't you? :)

3) yeah

4) What's the advanatage of adding it instead of using the pre-existing Assassination?

5) Probably beft left for an HLA considering it isn't entirely PnP stuff

6) conceptually I could agree, but right now I don't see why this kit need so many new features considering it doesn't lose much compared to the base class

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1) An Assassin swinging a heavy flail? :( It might be just me but I'd prefer him to be great with daggers rather than being able to wield a greatsword.
I agree. But don't you think that allowing him to specialize in daggers is a bit forced approach? He's still great with daggers because if their speed, while heavier weapons reduce the backstab multiplier, bringing them on par with daggers - especially early in game. At the same time, if he wants to actually participate in a direct combat, then a heavy weapon is better.

 

 

 

4) What's the advanatage of adding it instead of using the pre-existing Assassination?
Assassination allows to inflict heavy damage in several consecutive attacks, Death Attack is a single killing strike. Imo the latter is more fitting the kit's concept.
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1) Can become proficient with any weapon

I share Demi's reluctance on this point. I see the Assassin using standard thief weapons but with more skill.

 

2) Can coat his weapons with various poisons

Agree, but they would have to be different enough to warrant having multiple and all useful in certain situations.

 

3) At 1st level gains +1 backstab multiplier

Agree, necessary to differentiate them from Thieves at low levels.

 

4) At Xth level can use Death Attack

Agree that it fits more conceptually than Assassination, but it's a pity that the other one is called "Assassination."

 

5) At Yth level becomes invisible for x rounds after landing a killing blow

Like it, as I said, but probably better left for a high-level bonus.

 

6) At Zth level gains +5% critical

Like it, of course.

 

Disadvantages: Has only 5 points per level to distribute amongst thief skills. :D

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I see the Assassin using standard thief weapons but with more skill.
Then the question should be - do we want a niche RP character who kills with a dagger, or a professional killer able to utilize any means towards his goal.

 

I have nothing against the former, but both editions suggest that Assassin and Invisible Blade are two different classes.

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2) Can coat his weapons with various poisons
Agree, but they would have to be different enough to warrant having multiple and all useful in certain situations.
Well, dah... if you know your enemy won't fail at his save throw, you won't coat your blade with stun poison, if you know he is fire immune, you won't put on the flame ember coat, if you ... you see the point perhaps already... the coats should only work against most types, but never all of them, because there are several coat options, you cover them all eventually. So fire, holy(anti-undead), stun, lightning... The fire hit could be say 2d8 at a level, while the lightning can have less and a secondary friendly projectile on small radius for example.

 

There was alchemy, yeah that's a mage thing, but you can still have "Craft" skill on thieves.

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How will the assassins poisons be differentiated from the bounty hunters herbs?

 

A) One possibility is by application: the most obvious distinction is that assassins coat their weapons while bh sets traps. this distinction should be kept but not as a hard and inflexible rule imo for two reasons:

 

1. RR allows the bh to coat his weapons. I think this is a change for the better.

 

2. If the vanilla thief incorporates poison into his traps, the assassins should have a stronger poison.

 

B) effects. This should be the more distinction imo:

 

1. The assassins goals are simple and they use poison for that one goal. They could use a paralytic for example or exotic concoctions to affect/kill exotic creatures but not much else.

 

2. The bh, as a practicing herbalist, should have a lot more options. he can use hallucinogens to cause fear and/or confusion, paralytic s to, uh paralyze ( :) ), sleep, even possibly aphrodisiacs to charm.

 

Edit: affect/effect

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My suggestions:

 

Swashbuckler

Note; I'm biased here since this is my favourite kit.

Someone correctly noticed (I think at EE forums) that a multi F/T is a "better swashbucker than a swashbuckler" in BG1. This will change due to new XP tables, but I'd still recommend another +1 point to AC from level 1.

As someone skilled in evasion, Defensive stance (or Parry) seem appropriate as well.

Specialization in melee is fine, even more so if it's only for bladed weapons.

Traps I would remove from them, but am sure plenty of people wouldn't.

Some kind of "dirty trick" (dust in eyes, Trip) would also fit imo. He's a thief after all, not a Paladin.

 

Asassin

I like RR's version of this kit (Death Attack - critical for 1 hit, gained at 16th level, even if I think with Revised XP tables level 10 is perfectly fine). One thing I don't like (within RR) is how weak their poison is in BG1.

Vanilla version has even bigger problem, their poison in BG1 is so powerful it will kill anything it touches.

An "in-between" poison ability like 5 HP damage, +1 every level would be nice. Saving throw difficulty could increase with levels, like in RR. You could also add more poison effects at higher levels (Silence, open wounds etc.)

For the suggestion about Greatswords/Flails - no. He shouldn't even participate in open combat imo, he's more likely to remain hidden from sight, waiting for the chance to instantly kill or hamper mages and clerics, and in other cases he could contribute via poison arrows/darts. I simply cannot imagine a thief wielding 2-handed sword trying to hide.

I'm also for not adding "extra" poisons....he should remain specialized for human oponnents, not something you send after Demons.

Like the Swashbuckler, no traps for this kit as well.

A bounus to Hide in shadows/Move silently would be nice.

 

Bounty Hunter

Tracking seems fine imo. I'd add more incapacitating effects for them, something like fighter's Trip. Maybe a slight movement speed boost (even if I hate that stuff).

SR's Know oponnent seems very fitting as an innate ability as well, perhaps even a bit buffed up version of it.

Same as asassin, Hide bonus would be a nice addition.

Traps...I don't won't to comment, since I don't like those.

 

Thief

Bonus to pickpocket could be both nice and useful in BG1. Am not sure about other features.

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