Kit Revisions (Thieves)

[Demivrgvs]

I actually thought we would have discussed rangers before thieves. Anyway...

 

 

Assassin

How will the assassins poisons be differentiated from the bounty hunters herbs?

I'm still not sure we need different poisons for the Assassin because as far as I can tell there's only one thing an Assassin's poison should do: kill the target. A poison which causes silence or things like that sounds cool on paper, but if an Assassin manages to infect a mage with poison, why would he wish it to silence the victim instead of killing it? And an "assassin" who uses poisons to paralyze the target isn't an Assassin anymore imo, but a Bounty Hunter. Am I wrong?

 

I'm also for not adding "extra" poisons....he should remain specialized for human oponnents, not something you send after Demons.

And this too, yes. If the goal of different poisons was to grant poisons able to make this class great against undead, demons or things like that, I'd probably be against it.

 

A bounus to Hide in shadows/Move silently would be nice.

I do hate the % system for thieving skills, it's very stupid imo (and clearly doesn't work for low levels). I'm indeed in favor of granting at least a small stealth bonus to the Assassin, similarly to how vanilla Bounty Hunter gets a bonus to Set Traps. Even the True Thief could benefit from an appropriate bonus imo (e.g. a lower % distribuited among pick pockets, pick locks and find/remove traps?).

 

 

Bounty Hunter

SR's Know oponnent seems very fitting as an innate ability as well, perhaps even a bit buffed up version of it.

Same as asassin, Hide bonus would be a nice addition.

LOL, this is exactly what I was going to suggest for Rangers and Stalkers, taking inspiration from Pathfinder's Quarry ability (4e gave this ability to rangers too, but I feel "guilty" everytime I look at that edition ). I hate how much Bounty Hunter and Stalker concepts overlap, but yeah, this ability would fit BH too.

 

 

Swashbuckler

I'd still recommend another +1 point to AC from level 1.

I already planned it yes, but I'm removing the +1 to dmg (coupled with specialization it was making this kit deal more base damage than a True Fighter at level 1).

 

As someone skilled in evasion, Defensive stance (or Parry) seem appropriate as well.

Some kind of "dirty trick" (dust in eyes, Trip) would also fit imo. He's a thief after all, not a Paladin.

I'm still not sure what to do, but if we prefer this class to look more like a swashbuckler than a duellist, than dirty fighting is slightly more appropriate than things like combat expertise and disarm.

 

Specialization in melee is fine, even more so if it's only for bladed weapons.

Yep.

 

Traps I would remove from them, but am sure plenty of people wouldn't.

I'm not sure if I can find an easy way to differentiate Set Snare between kits (without resorting to heavy tweaking like Arda's mod). If I could I'd simply limit Swashbuckelrs to things like caltrops.

[Grammarsalad]

I like trap revisions!

 

Anyway, I'm okay if you want to get rid of traps for swashys (though I wouldn't vote for it if given the option--i think a crafty swashy might make use of them) but I really think assassins should have them.

 

that said, I like the direction this is going. Especially with their pet level penalty I think a stealth bonus is very appropriate for the assassin (and maybe hide for bh--not sure)

 

I think a "know opponent"ability is more appropriate for ranger types. The bh has his herbalism...

 

Both defensive stance (especially if you remove traps) and dirty fighting seem appropriate for the swashy imo

 

Edit: would to wouldn't

[Demivrgvs]

The other classes were giving me a headache and thus I've spent a little bit of time on thieves again.

 

Dirty Trick

I've finally put down a first version of it, and while I was at it I realized that while Alchemy seem to have been dropped (crafting potions is indeed a spellcaster thing), a couple of things I had in mind for it can still partially live within Dirty Trick.

 

For example, my first draft looks like this:

 

DIRTY TRICK: The thief has aquired a repertoire of feints, ruses, and various unsportsmanlike tactics that can come in handy in a fight.

 

DIRTY TRICK (ENSNARE): entangle a target within 10 feet for 1 round.

 

DIRTY TRICK (THROW SAND): blinds a target within 5 feet for 1 round.

 

DIRTY TRICK (SMOKE BOMB): the thief becomes invisible for 1 round.

With Ensnare and Throw Sand available at level 4, and Smoke Bomb available at level 10. What do you think?

 

 

Set Snare

This will be much much better than I initially thought, so much that I'll probably end up covering 90% of what Arda did in his cool mini mod here, but keeping vanilla's system (aka x/day uses are still there; # of traps in the same area still capped to 7; standard interface via innates rather than dialog menu).

 

I did not know I could give each kit their own unique traps, and even multiple options, without altering vanilla's system, but now that I know I can do it, I'll go wild. Jokes aside, take a look at the link and you'll have a pretty good idea of what I'm planning, but just to throw in a bunch of ideas:

- True Thief could get basic Arrow Trap (multiple targets within a large AoE, moderate damage), Spike Trap at mid-high levels (single target, heavy damage) and at least 1-2 more traps as HLAs such as Exploding Trap (multiple targets within a medium sized AoE, good fire damage and knock back). I'm not sure I like Arda's Lightning Trap, but KR's True Thief does have limited access to magic, and thus something like it might fit an HLA.

- Assassin could get Poisoned Darts (multiple targets within AoE, very low damage but powerful poison)

- Bounty Hunter could get various disabling traps, pretty much as Arda and RR's Alchemical Traps

- Swashbuckler could still get the basic Arrow Trap, and/or Caltrops

- Thief/Mage could get an Arcane Trap similarly to what what Arda did

- Thief/Cleric could get a Divine Trap though I'd focus it on debuffs (e.g. a dispelling or banishing trap) rather than raw damage

Last but not least: all traps will allow a save vs. breath. This might sound obvious but it is a crucial change over vanilla imo for various reasons, such as reducing their exploitness and making certain classes better at avoiding them (aka KR's thieves and barbarians), instead of having them work the same way against any class.

What do you think?

 

On a side note, I looked more closely to vanilla's Set Snare stats. Not only they have really random progression (gain poison, lose poison but get fire, lose fire and get poison again - yeah) but one thing instantly struck me: at level 1 the basic trap deals 2d8 + 5 damage with no save! Isn't it an automatic death sentence for low level characters in BG1?!? o.O Not to mention you can set multiple traps!

[Johs]

Is it possible to disallow setting traps in front of neutral creatures? Would diminish the possible exploits a lot, such as setting traps around someone you know will go hostile after speaking to them...

[Demivrgvs]

Is it possible to disallow setting traps in front of neutral creatures? Would diminish the possible exploits a lot, such as setting traps around someone you know will go hostile after speaking to them...

Afaik no, but I'm almost sure SCS did something via scripts to handle this.

 

Anyway, I've not yet decided the exact stats, but overall KR's traps will be less exploitable by themselves because they will be less powerful (if only because they will now allow a save). In exchange they should be slightly more "versatile" (as mentioned in the above post you have multiple options).

[Ardanis]

Set Snare

This will be much much better than I initially thought, so much that I'll probably end up covering 90% of what Arda did in his cool mini mod here, but keeping vanilla's system (aka x/day uses are still there; # of traps in the same area still capped to 7; standard interface via innates rather than dialog menu).

I think I should note that I wasn't quite happy with what I've done in that mod. In fact, I believe I even mentioned it was a sort of beta for KR.

 

Anyway, some time ago I began redrawing the design list, albeit left it shortly due to the lack of ideas atm. I ended up with three basic trap types that should always be available whenever you try to set a trap:

 

1) Arrow/Bolt - single target, low damage (1d6?) that can be saved against, max range, multiple shots (lvl / 4 ?)

2) Spike/Spear - single target, massive damage (1d10 * lvl / 4 ?) with save for half, range 1

3) Darts - AoE, low damage (2d3?) without a save, short/medium (10'?) trigger range and medium/long (20'?) explosion range

 

They can be upgraded in various ways, like Poisoned Darts or Fire Arrow or Impaling Spike (victim can't move).

 

4) Elemental Trap - Exploding (knock off), Freezing, Thunder (stun), Acid (continuous damage). They can be made to affect party members as well, although afaik it can only be plausibly made with the trigger range of 1, because the explosion must center on the target for the non-friendly feature to work.

5) Arcane Trap - a trap charged with a disabling arcane spell, works at long range but doesn't differentiate between friend and foe.

6) Divine Trap - emanates an aura of positive/negative energy, that affects the undead in the same way C/T's Turn Undead ability does. We can fake the destruction/control feature of TU, but not the cower, and I don't think it's possible for the trap to trigger on undead only, so it's purpose is questionable at best, therefore it needs something more useful:

- I think Demi's idea of dispel is a good replacement

- we can also use a true aura, that moderately damages undead and dazes living (positive) or allows a save vs spell to control undead or vs death to level drain living (negative)

[Kalindor]

I very much enjoy your proposal for the Dirty Trick ability. I suggest removing traps from the Swashbuckler entirely and giving them some additional options (or increased duration/effectiveness) for fighting dirty. No one fights dirtier than a pirate, after all. Are you planning on allowing saving throws for those abilities, or will they be save-less since the duration is so short?

 

*Edit: For the Swashbuckler, you could consider doing something like this:

 

DIRTY FIGHTING: The Swashbuckler is adept at using dishonorable combat maneuvers to keep his foes off-balance. At level 3, all Dirty Tricks that target a foe impose a -2 penalty to the target's THAC0 in addition to their other effects. At Level 10, Dirty Tricks also impose a -2 penalty to armor class. At level 16, Dirty Tricks also impose a -2 penalty to saving throws.

[kreso]

I very much enjoy your proposal for the Dirty Trick ability. I suggest removing traps from the Swashbuckler entirely and giving them some additional options (or increased duration/effectiveness) for fighting dirty. No one fights dirtier than a pirate, after all.

Hmm...I don't exactly see swashbuckler as a pirate. For me, he's more like Zorro or something like that. Jumping on/off tables, dodging, and kissing ladies while at it.

[Kalindor]

I think both are appropriate examples of a Swashbuckler. I'm not sure that Zorro wouldn't fight dirty also, but I'm no expert on that subject!

[kreso]

I think both are appropriate examples of a Swashbuckler. I'm not sure that Zorro wouldn't fight dirty also, but I'm no expert on that subject!

True. Zorro would fight both noble and dirty I guess, but dirty is a word with many meanings.

[Galsic]

Swashbuckler is also a thief kit. Zorro has the combat and acrobatic skills, but I don't recall him ever being associated with theifly activities. Otoh, I would think of a pirate as a more aggressive and malicious form of swashbuckler.

 

I remember at one point you planned on reserving dirty trick for true class thief to help balance him with the kits. If kits are getting dirty trick, do you have different plans for the thief?

[Demivrgvs]

My 2 cents on the above discussion. The Swashbuckler is an acrobatic rogue with a bit of duelist skills. It can easily be used to represent various characters such as scoundrels or pirates, and even a zorro-like character as long as you don't use his rogue skills to steal, burgle or things like that.

 

I remember at one point you planned on reserving dirty trick for true class thief to help balance him with the kits. If kits are getting dirty trick, do you have different plans for the thief?

I'm not giving Dirty Tricks to Assassin and Bounty Hunter, the only exception is the Swashbuckler.

 

Also, True Thief is still the only thief to get Use Magic Device, and that is a huge bonus imo.

[Grammarsalad]

My 2 cents on the above discussion. The Swashbuckler is an acrobatic rogue with a bit of duelist skills. It can easily be used to represent various characters such as scoundrels or pirates, and even a zorro-like character as long as you don't use his rogue skills to steal, burgle or things like that.

 

I remember at one point you planned on reserving dirty trick for true class thief to help balance him with the kits. If kits are getting dirty trick, do you have different plans for the thief?

I'm not giving Dirty Tricks to Assassin and Bounty Hunter, the only exception is the Swashbuckler.

 

Also, True Thief is still the only thief to get Use Magic Device, and that is a huge bonus imo.

 

That's cool as long as the intelligence requirements are too high.

 

EDIT: Or, you could patch ABCLASRQ.2da to the minimum to use some minimum magic items...

[Lawlight]

Swashbuckler

"This rogue is part acrobat, part swordsman and part wit: the epitome of charm and grace."

 

Advantages:

- Can specialize (++) in any bladed melee weapon available to Thieves

- At 1st level, gains a +1 bonus to hit with melee weapons, and +1 bonus to armor class. At level 5 and every other 4 levels, these bonuses increase by 1, up to +5 at 17th level.

- At 4th level can use Precise Strike once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.

 

Since you removed the "+1 damage every 5 levels" part this kit loses much of it's offensive potential. It was the only thing that helped the Swashbuckler compete with warriors - this and Use any Item (which hopefully get removed too). Do you consider granting them warriors 2* +1/2apr instead?

[yarpen]

Is there a possibility of implementing Hide in Plain Sight? Because backstab-reliant (looking at you, Assassin) characters have no "second chance". If there'd be a possiiblity of enabling hiding even when there are opponents around (with let's say -20% penalty) that would at least give theoretical reason for using Hide in Shadows.

Now, we all just use lvl2 mage spell on him and have 100% better effect.

 

I also think that anti-Illusion spells should not affect hidden characters at all. They detect illusionary magic, not potential danger. There are some candidates for that (Clairvoyance as the best example) but for example True Sight? Hell no.

 

Lawlight: from what I remember, Precision Strike offers some damage boost, at least in PnP.

 

Assassin still sucks. He has no tools to do his job (killing people) at all. 15 skill points per level is really hindering, he really needs some real advantages - especially since you removed Dirty Tricks from him (Smoke Bomb?!).