Kit Revisions (Thieves)

[kreso]

Adding dirtytrick-like HLA called Breaching strike. Yes, it does what it says on tin: a melee strike that removes combat protections on target.

Is it implementable\good\bad?

It's implementable, but overlaps with Wizardslayer (ironically, I think that the best way to play him is to dual him to a thief ).

Assassin probably shouldn't get breaching strike - his job is to wait for an oportunity to strike at a naked mage, killing him in a single blow, not remove stoneskins. That's what other party members are for (mages, inquisitor, WS).

True class thief will have "use magic device" or similar feat so he will be able to assist more in combat, either via scrolls, potions (throwing oils etc.) or wands. To play a thief late game, one has to get a bit creative, but they're never useless - i.e. their Detect Illusions skill is very useful throught the game. You won't fight Demons and similar enemies with thieves in melee, but they can for example assist by removing illusions from Glabrezus, juke, and similar stuff. Ranged combat is always an option as well.

 

 

If rogues (and clerics too) are to be more efficient, they really need to have more attacks eventually. I've been thinking, that an extra 0,5 attack at level 10 and 20 for rogues and clerics would do a lot for these classes.

I don't think that's gonna happen. With SR, Imp.Haste already adds +2 attacks. Clerics have more than a few options for combat buffing.

[Jarno Mikkola]

 

If rogues (and clerics too) are to be more efficient, they really need to have more attacks eventually. I've been thinking, that an extra 0,5 attack at level 10 and 20 for rogues and clerics would do a lot for these classes.

I don't think that's gonna happen. With SR, Imp.Haste already adds +2 attacks. Clerics have more than a few options for combat buffing.

 

If we wish, we can play with the wspatch.2da file, the prof.2da, profmax.2da and the weapprof.2da tables to partially at least archive this, and we should fix the very first files row 0 to be all zeroes. With these and the ToBEx'es proficiency based attack rate tweak, we can partially make this happen. We can actually include Paladins and Rangers(and the others) need to add a constrained line of proficiency picking, so they don't get auto +0.5 at level 7 and 13 if they don't pick the proficiencies they should.

[Demivrgvs]

Kreso covered it pretty well but I'll give my 2 cents.

@Jarno, is there any reason to make the +1/2 apr at levels 7 and 13 not automatic?

On a side note, KR partially "nerfed" warriors (except true fighters) by moving +1/2 apr from Specialization to Mastery (though Barbarian, Paladins and Rangers received a lot of buffs in other aspects), thus the gap in terms of apr between rogues and warriors is a bit smaller and the above mentioned change to Improved Haste has similar results. Add to that the revised thac0 tables, which gave a +50% boost to rogue's attack rolls, and you'll see that even if they are not combat powerhouses, thieves are already much more competitive then in vanilla.

Most importantly, Rogues are not meant to be melee warriors, and the goal of KR won't be making them capable in frontal combat, but make their own unique gameplay more effective. Rogues are my favorite class type (even when I was playing PnP ages ago), thus I assure you I will do everything I can to make them shine.

Speaking of which, I may have an ace in the hole but I need time to study how to implement it: FLANKING.

With ToBEx (not sure about EE), opcode 303 can be edited and setting parameter2 value to 2 (instead of Assassination HLA which has value 1) makes the character backstab on every hit ignoring invisibility requirement, but keeping the positioning requirement.

Now, x5 and x6 multipliers would make it insane imo, and it would be problematic for a F/T with high apr but maybe we can find a way to balance it somehow (e.g. allow it only via stance which lowers the backstab multiplier, make target invulnerable to backstab for 1 round when struck, etc.).

 

[spanyam]

Quick question: Are thief kit revisions not at all implemented at this point? I have beta 20, and I notice that assassins still go up to x7 backstab, there are no "dirty tricks" gained, HLAs aren't granted at level 17, etc. Basically these changes in the OP don't show up at all.

 

Also, looks like HLA's are still granted for every level above 3,000,000 xp. Is this intended behavior? As it stands, multiclass characters are still able to gain HLA's beyond level 13/13.

[kreso]

Quick question: Are thief kit revisions not at all implemented at this point?

No. It shouldn't take long (at least swashbuckler and Assassin are easy).

 

 

Also, looks like HLA's are still granted for every level above 3,000,000 xp. Is this intended behavior? As it stands, multiclass characters are still able to gain HLA's beyond level 13/13.

HLAs are gained (I think) at 3M exp, for all. Mind you, if you play a multi + Revised XP, you deserve them

[pblack476]

I have my 2 cents to give about Shadowdancers

 

 

I find everything on the kit just great, except that it is the worst possible character until you get to lvl 5! Both x2 backstab damage AND shadowstep come at that level.

 

I suggest giving them a BS progression of x2 from 1-8 so they can use their backstab early on. With the revised XP tables it is a nearly useless character for BG1 due to capping at lvl 8 and never getting x3 backstabs.

 

Maybe give them some of the Shadowdancer-only HLA's earlier at 17 or so?

 

To me, the SD should work a lot like an illusionist/thief in terms of concept, but in BG it takes a LOOONG time for that to become a reality.

[Jarno Mikkola]

@Jarno, is there any reason to make the +1/2 apr at levels 7 and 13 not automatic?

Yes, I am pretty sure that if you can't use a weapon as a level 6 fighter with any skill, the same char shouldn't be able to not hit anything with it 3/2 of the speed. Unless it puts a tiny amount of effort to training with that weapon. And then it might actually hit a barn. (yes, a bit over exaggeration for hilarity)

 

And I support pblacks476's suggestion... if it won't delay the KR's release

[pblack476]

Also... is there a discussion where shadowdancers are the subject? It seems they were ignored in this thieves thread. =(

 

[Just my all time favorite prestige class in all D&D editions]

[Grammarsalad]

Also... is there a discussion where shadowdancers are the subject? It seems they were ignored in this thieves thread. =(

 

[Just my all time favorite prestige class in all D&D editions]

You could start one? It is my understanding that bgee exclusives are not a priority

[Blackmaff]

I think x7 backstab is good for Assassin

 

It would make him more appealing

[kreso]

Given the recent discussion about Refinements - thieves there get a HLA called "use scrolls". Frankly, I'd give this to thieves on level 1; given they have enough intellingence to do so. I.e. INT=9 - no scrolls INT=12- up to level 2 scrolls etc. Coding this would be much simpler that what Refinements does.

[subtledoctor]

In PnP I think this kicks in at level 10, no? Or, ideally, thieves could use scrolls but the level of scroll that could be cast would be limited by INT (usable scroll level = INT - 9) or character level (usable scroll level = level/2).

 

But, please, I beg you, try to find a way to do this without doubling or tripling the number of kits in the game. If I ever getting around to making a revised version of Refinements, I would make 3 changes:

 

1) Refinements HLAs would be its own mod

2) The HLAs for each class would be a separate optional component

3) The Use Scrolls HLA would be its own separate optional component

[Jarno Mikkola]

In PnP I think this kicks in at level 10, no? Or, ideally, thieves could use scrolls but the level of scroll that could be cast would be limited by INT (usable scroll level = INT - 9) or character level (usable scroll level = level/2).

 

But, please, I beg you, try to find a way to do this without doubling or tripling the number of kits in the game.

This should be easy to do in the Item Revision mod, just make the thieves able to use the scrolls and then set the int limit according to the spell level. Yes, this would possibly make the idiot mages have the you are too stupid to memorize this scrolls spell, drink a potion darn it, but that was supposed to be already in some of the rules. That's the lesser of two evils.

[kreso]

In PnP I think this kicks in at level 10, no? Or, ideally, thieves could use scrolls but the level of scroll that could be cast would be limited by INT (usable scroll level = INT - 9) or character level (usable scroll level = level/2).

 

But, please, I beg you, try to find a way to do this without doubling or tripling the number of kits in the game. If I ever getting around to making a revised version of Refinements, I would make 3 changes:

 

1) Refinements HLAs would be its own mod

2) The HLAs for each class would be a separate optional component

3) The Use Scrolls HLA would be its own separate optional component

My idea is that usage of scrolls would be INT-based, yes. If a thief has high enough INT, he could use the scroll. I wouln't go to that hole Refinements digs, no - I'd simply make scrolls have INT requirement and make them usable by thieves.

[subtledoctor]

That sounds about like what I would do.

 

Oh wait - I already had this idea!

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/687642/#Comment_687642