Kit Revisions (Monks)

[Demivrgvs]

Fighting Styles

I hate you guys, I wanted a "simple" Monk revision...now we have tons of new Ki Powers and I'm even starting to like this whole "fighting styles" thing.

I think the idea of a monk being a bit more like an active ability-oriented melee fighter with some different stances / maneuvers definitely makes him feel distinct from the fighters, which was what I was originally worried about. This also gives you a lot of wiggle room for playing with the BGEE monk kits. It is a lot of work, though. I just caution that having to repeatedly activate fighting styles will be tiresome.

Actually I already have plenty of room for "playing" with BGEE monk kits considering they could have different immunities/resistances and most importantly different Ki powers. For example the Sun Soul Monk could get Flaming Fist, Sun Soulray, Sun Soul and Sun Soulbeam instead of Stunning Fist, Ki Arrow, Ki Dodge (or Wholeness of Body?) and Quivering Palm respectively.

 

I'm not sure instead if they'll get unique fighting styles...we'll see.

 

As a quick preview I can tell you I'm working on the 5 classic kung fu animal stance, but for now I've only a general idea of what they could do. Mind you I've even lurked around a lot to "educate myself" on how these are in real life (e.g. look here or here).

 

Random ideas:

- Tiger: it could simply replace Flurry of Blow imo.

- Panther: improved stealth and maybe even a 2x backstab multiplier later on.

- Crane: as previsouly discussed, evasion and counters (pretty much identical to Pathfinder PnP version).

- Snake: not sure, this style actually consists of two very different things. Quick strikes at vital points, and grappling.

- Dragon: this should be the final style gained only at later levels.

[Lawlight]

Random ideas:

- Tiger: it could simply replace Flurry of Blow imo.

- Panther: improved stealth and maybe even a 2x backstab multiplier later on.

- Crane: as previsouly discussed, evasion and counters (pretty much identical to Pathfinder PnP version).

- Snake: not sure, this style actually consists of two very different things. Quick strikes at vital points, and grappling.

- Dragon: this should be the final style gained only at later levels.

 

Wow. I'm totally impressed by this first glimpse.

 

Tiger: If Flurry of Blows has to be baked into one fighting style, yes. Maybe even slashing damage with unarmed attacks or/and a bleeding effect.

Crane: I agree.

Panther: This one I like the most. Especially the part with the 2x backstab multiplier. *evil grin*

Snake: Piercing damage?

 

Pathfinders Ultimate Combat may be helpful here.

[Grammarsalad]

Snake style: masters are supposed to be able to kill/stun/paralyze/inflict immense sms long lasting pain with a touch. They can also supposedly treat some of these (not death, obviously) also with a touch. The idea is an extension of acupuncture--certain points on the body are connected to various organs and by manipulating the flow of chi/ki, the master is able to help or hurt.

 

Some ideas:

 

1. increased "dc" to stunning fist (ie penalty to save--possible?)

 

2. "Bleeding" or poison effect as his touch disrupts body's harmony turning it on itself

 

3. piercing fists (they often hit with just the index finger)

 

4. Bonus to ac ( very defensive martial art)

 

5. Bonus to move silently (going off the map here but it makes sense--this is how snakes hunt)

 

EDIT:

 

Tiger Style: This is modeled off of Tiger Claw, yes? Assuming so (and, conceptually it works anyway) this is a quintessential "Hard" martial art.

 

1. Flurry of blows is very appropriate. You might want to think about giving a penalty to AC (rather than a penalty to Thac0) as it is not unknown for practitioners to take a blow in order to land a vicious combo to an unprotected--very difficult to defend and attack simultaneously--opponent.

 

2. Slashing fists are appropriate as they often attack with a claw like rake to the face, throat or other vulnerable area. That brings me to...

 

3. If any style could see a bonus to critical threat range it's this one (okay, snake and Panther/Leopard too)

 

4. Tameshiwari (ie board breaking). While this is not Tiger claw per se it screams "hard style". This might also be appropriate for a "Ki" ability as well. Could be targeted, do tremendous damage and even have a 'knock' effect to simulate breaking a lock.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Grammarsalad

[Lawlight]

Empty Body

This ability is very different in comparison to Ki Dodge. The first thing I recognised was the extreme long cast time. It feels a bit weird. Even more because all other abilities of the monk are instant skills.

I think a description of this ability would be very helpful for some players. And a portrait icon would be cool too.

 

What I figured out is, that it makes you immune to all weapons, gives you invisibility + non-detection and 100% magic resistenace. While very helpful I can't really imagine how the monk can manage to constantly switch between the planes to hit the targets in the material plane (is the apr decrease there to make it more realistic?). Maybe for a blink but not constantly with a speed of 4 apr. He is no Phase Spider...

[Demivrgvs]

Empty Body

This ability is very different in comparison to Ki Dodge.

The purpose is the same, but yeah, they are quite different, much like moving fast is not the same as teleporting.

 

The first thing I recognised was the extreme long cast time. It feels a bit weird. Even more because all other abilities of the monk are instant skills.

That's not intended...will fix.

 

I think a description of this ability would be very helpful for some players. And a portrait icon would be cool too.

You are right about both. I'll try to provide both asap.

 

What I figured out is, that it makes you immune to all weapons, gives you invisibility + non-detection and 100% magic resistenace. While very helpful I can't really imagine how the monk can manage to constantly switch between the planes to hit the targets in the material plane (is the apr decrease there to make it more realistic?). Maybe for a blink but not constantly with a speed of 4 apr. He is no Phase Spider...

You guessed right, it is supposed to be 1 round of full immunity, but with the inability to attack. Do you mean you were able to attack during that round? I do hope that doesn't mean setting apr to 0 doesn't work for the monk because of his hardcoded apr bonuses.

[kreso]

Feedback on Monk, BG2

First, the question "is Slow Time OP"?

As powerful as it may seem, no. It lasts for so short that abusing this (killing a mage before he buffs up) is impossible. It may buy you some time for few attacks, perhaps kill an enemy before you die, but it's by no means broken. Sort of like Deathless Frenzy. Nice addition (I do like DF much more, however) but nothing more than a last-resort spell, which due to short lasting cannot be used in conjuction with any other Monk abilities. I tried to find possible enemies where this could be useful, but failed - most of enemies are too tough to kill that fast, and mages use prebuff in an instant.

It also seems to last less than 6 seconds, but that's relativity of time I guess.

Empty Body - ummm....I think that (due do casting time mostly) this is actually a step back from Ki Dodge (which is great). Ended up not even using it, this needs instant activation if it's going to be of any use at all. I can see it's use (sure death dodger ,) but casting time messes it up completely.

Ki Shout - I liked this one. Main use was to disrupt casting, damage is low but it doesn't matter for this kind of spell. My favourite, I guess. Only problem is that you need to be very close to targets for this to work. Useful skill.

Ki Arrow - mmmm....again, a spell disruptor but mainly for lower levels it seems, it bounces of Physical Mirror and doesn't penetrate Protection from missiles. Damage is very poor for a single-target spell. Perhaps adding another effect (Blindness or something) could make it more useful. Might be just my opinion, but I found all other Ki abilities much more useful. Obsolete by Shout.

Insta-heal is very nice, ofc.

As for gameplay, I liked him. He looses out on a bunch of stuff (mainly weapons) but given his ability to have 10 apr it doesn't matter. One thing I'd like to point out - don't add ST penalty to Stunning Fist, it's fine as it is - apr alone makes up for saving throw.

He can tank lesser mobs easilly, a bit sucks vs boss types but only if he gets focused. Otherwise, a dervish of destruction, especially after a strenght boost and those monk only gauntlets of crushing.

Damage per round easilly gets insane (more than 300 with 20 strenght). Perhaps tweaking his fists (1D10) wouldn't be bad. Given that in SR4 imp.haste will add 2 attacks, this might help balance it out.

I find him a bit OP - he gets vanilla whirlwind attack with a simple 6th level spell (and all atacks do obscene damage). The fact that he lost MR is more than balanced with possibility of imp.haste, and his immunities are still there.

Perhaps adding immunity to imp.haste also wouldn't be bad. The way he is, he's more than a match for any fighter kit so far in BG2.

Exellent progression into ToB, and benefits immensly from a supporting mage. He could die easilly, but with his Ki pool (Abduant Step) I reloaded very few times.

One thing that kept him balaced is the fact that enemies use HLA's like Power attack etc. to disable him, after he's disabled he dies very very fast.

All said and done, I think slight nerf needed. For as long as he isn't the main focus of enemies, he acts like hell on wheels.

[Lawlight]

My little feedback:

 

Much better than vanilla. Still a bit weak at low levels, but really decent at mid levels.

 

Description

The ability to Stealth and Find Traps should be mentioned somewhere.

 

Slow Time

I have to agree with kreso here. It can be very devastating if used in the right moment though.

 

Ki Shout

Really like this one. I'm with kreso here gameplay wise.

But... sometimes a really nice animation occurs. But it only happens like 1 of 5 times. Any reason for this?

 

Ki Arrow

Very unappealing imo. Used it once or twice and never again. The animation is very unimpressive too.

 

Wholeness of Body

Nice to have.

 

Abduant Step

This is by far my favorite. Don't know how many times it saved him. He justed teleported into the backline and got healed by Aerie. Secondly and more important it allows for easy repositioning in cases he drew to much attention... And well, bye bye Archers...

 

Perhaps adding immunity to imp.haste also wouldn't be bad.

Don't like the idea. It makes no sense... SRV4 in mind, I see no need for action on this matter.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Lawlight

[Kalindor]

I agree that Ki Arrow is not particularly appealing. I used it in BG1 on occasion but consistently found it underwhelming. Perhaps a save or knockdown that is more difficult to resist than Ki Shout's would make it more balanced. I would add a secondary effect of some sort in lieu of increasing the damage.

[Demivrgvs]

Thanks guys. Let's see...

 

@Kalindor, I should indeed add a mention of hiding and trap detection skills. Right now I don't even remember how many skill points they get at level1 and at each level. I've also fixed Ki Shout animation to always trigger, thanks for pointing it out.

 

As I expected Abundant Step is golden. Empty Body was bugged until yesterday (casting time 8) thus we cannot really discuss it (I still hope setting apr to 0 works). I'm really glad Slow Time seems to be fine because it's one of those things (such as Abundant Step) making the class feel and play different than just a fighter using unarmed attacks. I had no doubts Ki Shout would have been a fan favorite, and I do feared it would have made Ki Arrow very obsolete (I was even tempted to make the former an upgrade from the basic Ki Arrow). I'm not sure what to do to improve Ki Arrow by itself other than raising the damage, and adding a knock back effect would make it even more overlapping with Ki Shout imo.

 

When it comes to Improved Haste now making him a dervish of destruction, it's mostly a problem of vanilla's spell imo (though as I said I'm not against keeping AD&D immunity to both slow and haste). It's not like a dual wielding vanilla fighter (not to mention Kensai and Berserker) getting 8 attacks per round (or 9 with a certain pair of gauntlets) for tons of rounds (up to 23!!) is any less overpowered with that spell, isn't it? I hope SR will help rebalancing that.

 

Overall, judging by your reports I'd say the situation is:

- in need of a small improvement for BG1 (already planned)

- more or less fine for BG2

- probably fine for late BG2 if we handle haste in one way or the other

- revised refinement-like HLAs should keep it fine for ToB

[kreso]

Thanks guys. Let's see...

When it comes to Improved Haste now making him a dervish of destruction, it's mostly a problem of vanilla's spell imo (though as I said I'm not against keeping AD&D immunity to both slow and haste). It's not like a dual wielding vanilla fighter (not to mention Kensai and Berserker) getting 8 attacks per round (or 9 with a certain pair of gauntlets) for tons of rounds (up to 23!!) is any less overpowered with that spell, isn't it? I hope SR will help rebalancing that.

Well, I don't see my fighters dual wielding +3 Halberds with 0 speed factor and no penalties for dual-wielding for 10 (!) apr... , not to mention Gauntlets of Crushing extra +4 damage per hit.

But yes, the main issue here is imp.haste, not Monk per se.

[Demivrgvs]

Thanks guys. Let's see...

When it comes to Improved Haste now making him a dervish of destruction, it's mostly a problem of vanilla's spell imo (though as I said I'm not against keeping AD&D immunity to both slow and haste). It's not like a dual wielding vanilla fighter (not to mention Kensai and Berserker) getting 8 attacks per round (or 9 with a certain pair of gauntlets) for tons of rounds (up to 23!!) is any less overpowered with that spell, isn't it? I hope SR will help rebalancing that.

Well, I don't see my fighters dual wielding +3 Halberds with 0 speed factor and no penalties for dual-wielding for 10 (!) apr... , not to mention Gauntlets of Crushing extra +4 damage per hit.

But yes, the main issue here is imp.haste, not Monk per se.

Point taken, you know I never liked Monk's fist doing absurd damage (I already reduced it from 1d20 to 1d12), but to be fair you should at least count Fighter's grand mastery bonus imo, and in that case even a mere dagger +3 (1d4 +3, +5 from GM means 10.5 on average) is going to be more damaging than Monk's Fist +3 (1d12 +3 means 9.5 on average). Try to imagine a dual wielding Berserker or Kensai and even without heavy weapons (bastard swords, flails, katanas) there's really no match. The damage output of an improved hasted fighter is simply insane, as expected considering the spell pretty much is Whirlwind Attack on steroids (no penalties) with an absurdly long duration!

 

P.S I do think I might slightly nerf those gauntlets, +4 to both attack rolls and damage rolls on a character with such a high apr is indeed too much imo.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[Lawlight]

@Kalindor, I should indeed add a mention of hiding and trap detection skills. Right now I don't even remember how many skill points they get at level1 and at each level. I've also fixed Ki Shout animation to always trigger, thanks for pointing it out.

I guess you meant me. Dunno exactly about level 1 (maybe kreso can answer this - he plays BGT I think) but he gains 10skill points per level.

 

Empty Body was bugged until yesterday (casting time 8) thus we cannot really discuss it (I still hope setting apr to 0 works).

Last time I checked it, the monk was able to attack during this round with and apr rate of 4 instead of 5 (unhasted).

 

though as I said I'm not against keeping AD&D immunity to both slow and haste

1) I'm against reintroducing slow&haste immunity. Otherwise I'm with Demi here.

2) I think it is not a particular monk class phenomenom - it's a global problem with Improved Haste & warriors. I have no doubt that SR will fix that one day.

3) Factor in all these nasty equipped- and combat abilities of some of the weapons. Monk's are unable to make any (or much) use of them...

4) There are much worse caliber in terms of raw damage output.

 

P.S I do think I might slightly nerf those gauntlets, +4 to both attack rolls and damage rolls on a character with such a high apr is indeed too much imo.

I agree.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Lawlight

[kreso]

I guess you meant me. Dunno exactly about level 1 (maybe kreso can answer this - he plays BGT I think) but he gains 10skill points per level.

Yes, he gets 10 points per level. He gets 10/20/15 for find traps/move silently/hide in shadows. These are dependant on his Dex score apperantly. If his Dex is below 14 (I think) he gets penalties, might even end up with -5(!?) on Find Traps/Move silently.

 

Empty Body was bugged until yesterday (casting time 8) thus we cannot really discuss it (I still hope setting apr to 0 works).

Last time I checked it, the monk was able to attack during this round with and apr rate of 4 instead of 5 (unhasted).

Yes, monk looses 1 APR and is still able to attack. Perhaps you could apply a "Disarm" effect on them instead? If it isn't already used...

[Demivrgvs]

@Kalindor, I should indeed add a mention of hiding and trap detection skills. Right now I don't even remember how many skill points they get at level1 and at each level. I've also fixed Ki Shout animation to always trigger, thanks for pointing it out.

I guess you meant me. Dunno exactly about level 1 (maybe kreso can answer this - he plays BGT I think) but he gains 10skill points per level.

Yeah it was you sorry. I'm reading so many posts I got confused. Thanks, I'll add it to description.

 

Empty Body was bugged until yesterday (casting time 8) thus we cannot really discuss it (I still hope setting apr to 0 works).

Last time I checked it, the monk was able to attack during this round with and apr rate of 4 instead of 5 (unhasted).

Damn, sounds like hardcoded unarmed apr isn't affected by the set apr opcode. If we want to keep the "cannot attack" feature I'll have to do it the hard way, similarly to how SR handle shapeshifting/polymorph abilities. Edited June 24, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[kreso]

I need confirmation on this....does "Slow Time" ability last shorter than 6 seconds (1 round)?

It seems to last no longer than 3 seconds somehow.

Edited June 24, 2013 by kreso