Kit Revisions (Monks)

[Dakk]

 

I believe that the current phrasing has internal consistency. I.e. proficiencies for Warriors are "one pip every 3 levels", which works exactly like APR for monks above. Same for spell effects ("1D6 for every 4 levels") and so on.

 

Oh I see. Thanks, didn't realize that.

 

No problem It is a somewhat confusing terminology, but then again AC and THAC0 isn't the most straight forward concept either

[spanyam]

After playing through for a while, using two different approaches, here's what I found. I only played through part of BG1 to see if Monks work well in the early stages of the game (as we all know they do work well in late game).

First go:
Played "normally" with a rather full party. Optimized stats at creation to 18/18/16/18/10/7. Here I found the Monk to be quite usable at early levels, especially with a starting AC of 3. Stunning Fist is especially useful in early stages of the game when single enemies are more prevalent. After about 20 hours of play, I found that so long as the Monk didn't attract too much aggro, he was quite effective at dispatching enemies (48% kill rate in a party of 6). I felt that he rolled an unusually high number of crits, but maybe that's just luck.

 

The 1d8 boost at level 3 is also very welcome. I didn't find a lot of use for Ki Step at this stage, but Stunning Fist and Ki Dodge proved handy in a pinch. A little bland on the "fun" department, since he doesn't have very many toys to play with at these early stages. But at least it would be less bland than someone like a fighter.

All in all, if you are optimizing stats and playing with a party, the monk is very usable at early levels.

Second go:

Tried a "role play" solo attempt, where I was Butch, the unfortunate "every day regular guy" who went to bed one night in Los Angeles and woke up the next in a strange body in a strange land called Faerun. He doesn't trust anyone and prefers to work alone, only talking to others to gain information on how to get back to his comfortable apartment.

 

Unfortunately for Butch, he only had 14 dex (since I did a "roll 10 times and take the best without altering anything" run), which meant his AC was at an abominable 7! Poor Butch could not engage a single thing other than a Gibberling in melee. The only way he got by is Kiting bears and wolves and a train of 10 other critters using a lowly sling.

 

He couldn't even enter the inn in FAI because Tarnesh was absolutely impossible to face at level 1. He tried skipping the inn and wandering around to the neighboring areas in search of XP and answers. But with his inability to do anything other than chuck pebbles (or risk instant depletion of his paltry 9 hp), he quickly gave up his quest and decided to accept his fate as a farmhand specializing in collecting manure.

 

So basically, solo monk in BG1 without stat optimization is BAD, almost unplayably bad. I can't even imagine walking that poor sucker through the traps in the lower Nashkel mines.

Edited October 13, 2014 by spanyam

[Demivrgvs]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I'm not balancing anything around solo gameplay, and never will. For what I care this game xp mechanic and its encounters should be tweaked to make solo games impossible or at least terribly punitive. With the current system a small party makes the game easier and with certain classes even soloing quickly became unbalanced because of the ridiculous power lvl the single character achieve.

 

Leaving that aside, I do imagine that playing a BG1 solo Monk with 14 DEX is bad, much like playing a KR Berserker with 14 CON, but that is not "roleplaying" imo. Considering the background of a Monk character all his stats should be kinda good imo, and if you add to this that we are speaking of a Bhaalspawn I would expect somthing like 17/18/16 or not much less. DEX, especially for BG1 is the most important stat for a Monk.

 

I'm instead pleased to hear that in a "normal game" the class works fine. Your only complain seem to be the lack of "toys to play with" at low levels, but other players actually seemed to consider them too many. Overall I'd say 5 different abilities (Stunning Fist, Ki Step, Ki Dodge, Ki Arrow, Wholeness of Body) for a melee warrior is enough for BG1.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Demivrgvs

[spanyam]

I'm not balancing anything around solo gameplay, and never will.

Makes sense

 

I'm instead pleased to hear that in a "normal game" the class works fine. Your only complain seem to be the lack of "toys to play with" at low levels, but other players actually seemed to consider them too many. Overall I'd say 5 different abilities (Stunning Fist, Ki Step, Ki Dodge, Ki Arrow, Wholeness of Body) for a melee warrior is enough for BG1.

I do see your point there. It's overall still a nice class to use at lower levels in a normal party scenario.

[kreso]

He couldn't even enter the inn in FAI because Tarnesh was absolutely impossible to face at level 1.

There are very few who can, since two magic missile castings will kill you, and Horror is very hard to resist at level 1. Namely, clerics (Command), mages with familiar, stalkers/thieves apart swash, berserker. Others have to rely on luck I'm afraid.

Fwiw, the best deal for level 1 character is rush to Beregost, speak to Marl for 900 exp, give the book to mage for 300, help that evil bardess kill the actors (300 exp + 3 defense potions), kill spiders in house with ranged weapons (lure them out), kill ogres south of Beregost with range weapons and give letter to the chick.

That should give you level 2 at least. Now go to FAI, if you're a monk use stealth and return spider, boots and wine to guy at top floor. That should give you level 3, usually enough to kill Tarnesh solo.

Or pick up Viconia to tank his magic.

[spanyam]

 

 

He couldn't even enter the inn in FAI because Tarnesh was absolutely impossible to face at level 1.

There are very few who can, since two magic missile castings will kill you, and Horror is very hard to resist at level 1. Namely, clerics (Command), mages with familiar, stalkers/thieves apart swash, berserker. Others have to rely on luck I'm afraid.

Fwiw, the best deal for level 1 character is rush to Beregost, speak to Marl for 900 exp, give the book to mage for 300, help that evil bardess kill the actors (300 exp + 3 defense potions), kill spiders in house with ranged weapons (lure them out), kill ogres south of Beregost with range weapons and give letter to the chick.

That should give you level 2 at least. Now go to FAI, if you're a monk use stealth and return spider, boots and wine to guy at top floor. That should give you level 3, usually enough to kill Tarnesh solo.

Or pick up Viconia to tank his magic.

Good to know. Will try that next time I play an iniyially squishy melee character.

[subtledoctor]

you know I never liked Monk's fist doing absurd damage (I already reduced it from 1d20 to 1d12), but to be fair you should at least count Fighter's grand mastery bonus imo, and in that case even a mere dagger +3 (1d4 +3, +5 from GM means 10.5 on average) is going to be more damaging than Monk's Fist +3 (1d12 +3 means 9.5 on average). Try to imagine a dual wielding Berserker or Kensai and even without heavy weapons (bastard swords, flails, katanas) there's really no match.

So I am investigating this class a bit, both with and without KR. It's new to me, I've never once played a monk in a BG game.

 

I think it's worth chiming in on the issue above: comparing a monk's fist damage with a fighter's weapon damage is not really a great comparison because a) just thinking about it, even with focused chi behind the attack, it's still a fist versus a 5-20 pound weapon wielded by a grandmaster. And b) monks have a gazillion other magical powers and immunities that fighters lack. So even saying "it's only 9.5 average, versus 10.5 for a dagger" - to me that still looks like way too much for the fists. (Especially since any given party will most likely only have one monk, meaning the pkayer is basically guaranteed to be using the Gauntlets of Crushing.)

 

So instead of/in addition to reducing the damage, is there any thought to maybe, (I hate to suggest this but...) actually reign in some of those gazillion superpowers and immunities? Like just straight-up have fewer "toys to play with" as you say. Follow the KISS principle (which Bioware clearly did not).

[kreso]

He can't be hasted. That's a huge drawback, given how Haste works.

[subtledoctor]

In the above vein (but in a separate post because it's a different, more specific point), someone above asked about monks' weapon proficiencies. I have to infer why do they have any in the first place? If the theme of the class is that they gone their bodies to become weapons, why use any other?

 

I mean think about it: in BG1 people find fists underwhelming so they use a weapon instead. Then after a few levels, their fists become more powerful - even though they haven't been practicing with them in daily use!

 

So why not just give monks zero weapon proficiencies? Doubling APR with fists seems like a pretty good trade-off for that in the early going.

[subtledoctor]

He can't be hasted. That's a huge drawback, given how Haste works.

I'm not concerned about a list of benefits and drawbacks; I'm not suggesting this to balance things, in fact I think it's kind of a suggestion to *unbalance* things - at least that aspect (DPS) - to account for various other things that are unbalanced, like the ability to use stunning blow and slow time and stealth and X Y & Z other mystical abilities that can't be added up as numbers in a calculation.

 

Also, I must say that there are some incredibly creative ideas in this thread, it's really impressive. But larger picture, implementing all those ideas just because it is possible and they are really cool can just lead to a class that is all about those "toys to play with."

 

Rather than give the one vanilla monk all of these abilities, why not add a few kits and give them each some overlapping but also some different abilities - that would increase variety and flavor and push people into playing different ways in different runs.

 

Crap, don't tell me monk kits are hard-coded. Like I say, I haven't looked into monks much, but that wouldn't surprise me.

 

And to clarify, I hope I don't sound critical, I'm not saying it ought to be this way or that way I have very little experience playing monks, so I'm least qualified to give advice on specifics. Just looking at the bigger picture.

Edited October 21, 2014 by subtledoctor

[kreso]

 

Crap, don't tell me monk kits are hard-coded

They aren't on EE however.

Edited October 21, 2014 by kreso

[Jarno Mikkola]

Well, just like sorcerer kits in BG2 you can't make a direct kit selectable from the character creation, but you can make a fighter kit that turns it into a Monk that then has a unique kit. It's simple really.

[kreso]

Well, just like sorcerer kits in BG2 you can't make a direct kit selectable from the character creation, but you can make a fighter kit that turns it into a Monk that then has a unique kit. It's simple really.

Yeah, it is. The attack animation also looks great.

[subtledoctor]

Well, just like sorcerer kits in BG2 you can't make a direct kit selectable from the character creation, but you can make a fighter kit that turns it into a Monk that then has a unique kit. It's simple really.

Or you could give all monk kits the same abilities at level 1, and include an innate ability (which is removed at level 2) that lets you switch from the basic kit and chose from a few different specialty kits. That would take care of the animation issue.

Edited October 21, 2014 by subtledoctor

[kreso]

Or you could give all monk kits the same abilities at level 1, and include an innate ability (which is removed at level 2) that lets you switch from the basic kit and chose from a few different specialty kits. That would take care of the animation issue.

 

I'm curious, how do you read from clab table?