Kit Revisions (Monks)

[Lawlight]

If we want to keep the "cannot attack" feature I'll have to do it the hard way, similarly to how SR handle shapeshifting/polymorph abilities.

We have to. Otherwise it overlaps with Slow Time to a certain extent.

[Lawlight]

I need confirmation on this....does "Slow Time" ability last shorter than 6 seconds (1 round)?

I felt this way too. Something like 4 seconds.

[kreso]

May be 3 for me (I play with 40 fps games speed).

[Demivrgvs]

Slow Time

I need confirmation on this....does "Slow Time" ability last shorter than 6 seconds (1 round)?

I felt this way too. Something like 4 seconds.

May be 3 for me (I play with 40 fps games speed).

Near Infinity says it correctly has 0 casting time and 6 second duration. Please don't tell me I cannot even trust opcode durations.

[kreso]

There's no way it lasts 6 seconds...I checked it in NI as well, but in game it doesn't last that long.

Edit:

Tried it some more....last for approx 1/2 duration of fighter's Called Shot. i.e. around 3 seconds.

Edited June 24, 2013 by kreso

[Demivrgvs]

Slow Time

There's no way it lasts 6 seconds...I checked it in NI as well, but in game it doesn't last that long.

Edit:

Tried it some more....last for approx 1/2 duration of fighter's Called Shot. i.e. around 3 seconds.

Mmm...upon further inspection, the original spell does have duration set to 36 seconds but it lasts 3 rounds in-game (half as much). I guess it must be some weird thing related to how the TS opcode works. So, if math isn't an opinion I say we should set Slow Time to last 12 seconds for it to actually last 1 round in game.

 

Btw, this engine never ceases to surprise me (almost always negatively ) but this time around I'm the one responsible for not doing my homework well enough as IESDP would have warned me:

#231 (0x0E7) Spell Effect: Time Stop [231]
Parameter #1: Irrelevant
Parameter #2: Irrelevant
Description:
Applies the time stop effect.
The timestop effect lasts half as long as the Duration specified for the effect.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[kreso]

Yes, setting duration to 12 does the trick...am I the only one who now thinks this is OP?

[Lawlight]

I think it should be fine as an HA.

[kreso]

I'm honestly a bit worried about monk. They already match up to fighters in terms of fighting, can disrupt spellcasters at range, have stun,save or die ability, immunities, stealth, and if not disabled, are pretty much impossible to kill. Do they really need the ability to kill a single oponnent (almost any) without a chance for retaliation, even for 1x/day? Even with SCS full prebuff, I manage to get to the mage fast enough to kill him in 4 or 5 blows, and he has no chance of erecting defences since he's frozen. Kind of feels like cheating, tbh.

[Lawlight]

I think Slow Time really differentiates the monk from all the other warriors. It fits them really nice.

But if you are really worried about it. I could live with just a half round duration. It'd be still very usefull if used in the right moment - even with such a short duration.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Lawlight

[Kalindor]

I agree with Lawlight. Slow Time, Abundant Step, and Ki Shout give panache to the Monk. I would not remove any of them unless absolutely necessary.

 

In terms of kreso's concerns, I am troubled by the thought of the monk being "pretty much impossible to kill" as you mentioned. If this is true, his defensive prowess should be reduced a bit. If it is too easy to kill SCS mages before they get their protections up, perhaps give Slow Time a small (1-3) casting time. Keep in mind that said mages have no compunction against nuking you into oblivion while you are frozen in in time.

[Lawlight]

hey already match up to fighters in terms of fighting, can disrupt spellcasters at range, have stun,save or die ability, immunities, stealth, and if not disabled, are pretty much impossible to kill.

That's pushing it a bit. But I get what you want to say. He is a very versatile fighter, yes, but please keep in mind that there is one big Ki Pool and you must choose wisely which skill to use... Once it's empty the monk has mediocre defensive capabilities at best.

The Ki Pool is one good way to balance him. Some examples:

- one could make Ki Shout the natural upgrade of Ki Arrow (which Demi already suggested) -> give Ki Arrow it's knockback for low level then...

- Quivering Palm could join the Ki Pool (maybe in a nerfed state) to even more force wise decisions

 

Other than that:

- future update of SR (Imp. Haste) will balance out Stunning Blow and damage output a bit more

- once Empty Body works as it should, it will not longer be possible to abuse it offesively; it's a good (short) panic button then, nothing more

- Slow Time deserves to be a powerfull ability; if 1 round is too strong the duration is the best way to nerf it (3 sec was just fine)

 

In terms of kreso's concerns, I am troubled by the thought of the monk being "pretty much impossible to kill" as you mentioned. If this is true, his defensive prowess should be reduced a bit. If it is too easy to kill SCS mages before they get their protections up, perhaps give Slow Time a small (1-3) casting time. Keep in mind that said mages have no compunction against nuking you into oblivion while you are frozen in in time.

They are hard to kill, because of smart Abundant Step usage and teamwork. I see nothing particular wrong with this.

I'm totally against a casting time for Slow Time. It's the fact that everything is instant that allows for fast reactions. And this is by far the most fun part of KR's monk imo.

[kreso]

Ki pool has quite a bit of uses per day, I never emptied it in ToB...and I don't rest much...

"Versatile" is a very mellow word for him imo at later levels. He can dodge magic attacks with Empty Body like a WS (sure, won't be able to attack but is in turn invulnerable to melee as well, in many cases this is even better, moreover in BG2 since you can't drink potions and use abilities in the same round).

I'm not saying "hard to kill"...it's borderline impossible unless he gets confused/held/stunned, and all of these effects can be dodged with Empty Body. If he gets surrounded while at it, simply Teleport away. He can avoid fighting mages alltogether by simply killing them in Timestop. A perfect bait character.

Even with imp.haste nerf, he will still have highest apr in game. No mage in game (apart the Ascension Five members) will survive 7 attacks. Even those which manage to prebuff, are dead as soon they're breached. In SCS, they will generally use defensive triggers/sequencers after their protections are gone, but with Monk's insta-cast TS there's no way they can do that anymore.

Not even a mage with Vecna/AoP can instantly cast TS. Multiclassed F/M's get 9th level spells at 6Million EXP, and they're mages. He gets it faster than a mage....

I can't imagine how broken they can be in vanilla.

I'd remove this ability, and replace it with something sensible.

[Demivrgvs]

Empty Body

I can fix it for the next update, but just in case: would you prefer it to make the Monk incorporeal rather than ethereal? Instead of full immunity it would be something like +4 bonus to attack rolls and AC, 50% res to all damage, and immunity to abilities which require corporeal targets to function (e.g. Polymorph Other, Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate, and Implosion) or create a corporeal effect that incorporeal creatures would normally be unaffected by (e.g. Entangle, Grease, and Web).

 

The current implementation is the closest one to PnP, but there it consumes 3 ki points instead of 1 (at least in Pathfinder, D&D Next is strangely planning to make it consume only 1 point). On a side note, it may sound strange, but doesn't it currently overlap with Abundant Step?

 

 

Slow Time

@kreso, I thought prebuffs and contingencies could keep this ability in check, but I might be wrong. Does ST make you able to act so fast that contingencies/triggers cannot be activated before it? Would it still do the same with casting time 1? More than 1 makes no sense imo.

 

Btw, as I said upon releasing it, the ability currently is at level 17 because I wanted it to be used and tested, but it was actually intended to be an HLA.

[kreso]

Empty Body

I can fix it for the next update, but just in case: would you prefer it to make the Monk incorporeal rather than ethereal? Instead of full immunity it would be something like +4 bonus to attack rolls and AC, 50% res to all damage, and immunity to abilities which require corporeal targets to function (e.g. Polymorph Other, Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate, and Implosion) or create a corporeal effect that incorporeal creatures would normally be unaffected by (e.g. Entangle, Grease, and Web).

Thumbs up for this.

 

Slow Time

@kreso, I thought prebuffs and contingencies could keep this ability in check, but I might be wrong. Does ST make you able to act so fast that contingencies/triggers cannot be activated before it? Would it still do the same with casting time 1? More than 1 makes no sense imo.

I can 10 out of 10 times kill the mage spawning with Illasera before his prebuff kicks in (I can try editing the spell myself, I'll let you know.)