Finding one's way through all those .2da files ...

[ZenSojourner]

I'm trying to come up with a Bard kit that is basically the Jester, minus pickpocketing, plus non-thieving rogue skills (like disarm traps), with limited spell-casting (limited to defensive spells only) and a couple of minor innate abilities. Also, any alignment should be allowed, including lawful, since these bards are non-thieving.

 

So I started digging into the files BG uses with Near Infinity. I'm actually kind of proud of myself for having figured out what little I do know in the few hours since last night, once I started digging around with NI.

 

But I obviously have a looong way to go.

 

Here's where I'm at so far:

 

In bard class, the only currently allowed proficiency is pickpocket, which I want to eliminate altogether. I then want to ENABLE proficiencies in the non-thieving rogue skills such as detect traps/illusion and set traps. The relevant files include (but may not be limited to)

 

CLABBA03.2da - for the BARD/JESTER kit. It has a string AP_SPCL751. At first I guessed that this enables the offensive Bard Song unique to the JESTER kit. But on looking at the other 3 CLABBA0x.2da files, I have no idea what it is doing (see below).

 

SKILLRAC.2da - a table of racial bonuses for each of the 7 rogue skills

 

SKILLDEX.2da - a table of bonuses to each of the rogue skills according to the dexterity of the character

 

SKILLBRD.2da - a table of the per-level bonus to pickpocketing for the bard class - starts at 25 for L1, 35 for L2, etc.

 

In the case of a human bard jester with 18 DEX you would then have

 

from SKILLRAC.2da +15 to pickpocket for all humans

 

from SKILLDEX.2da +10 to pickpocket for DEX 18

 

from SKILLBRD.2da +25 to pickpocket @ level 1 for all bards

 

For a total of 50 skill points to pickpocket, which is born out when you create a new bard/jester, human, with DEX 18; sure enough, there's the 50 proficiency in pickpocketing.

 

Since SKILLBRD.2da has no other entries, no other rogue skills are enabled.

 

For the CLAB files:

 

AP_xxxxxxx is enabling an always-available type of skill

 

GA_xxxxxxx enables an innate ability which can only be used once per day. Each GA_xxxxxxxx entry adds one to the total # of times the skill can be used per day

 

******** entries are just placeholders and effect no change

 

CLABBA01.2da is the basic BARD class with no kit. All entries are ******; so no skills are enabled for vanilla bards.

 

CLABBA02.2da should be for the BLADE kit - I'm guessing that the entries GA_SPCL521 and GA_SPCL522 starting at L1 and then occuring every 4th level are to enable the progressive Offensive Spin and Defensive Spin abilities, which increase by one (the # of times per day you can do it) every 4th level. This matches documentation about the BLADE kit abilities.

 

CLABBA03.2da is for JESTER kit and enables one always-available type of skill - AP_SPCL751. I don't know what this is. If it's not the JESTER type bard song - and it seems to me it shouldn't be that - there is nothing in the JESTER documentation that explains this.

 

CLABBA04.2da for SKALD kit uses AP_SPCL541 and AP_SPCL542. I have no idea what these could pertain to. SKALD has a unique version of the Bard Song, as JESTER does; but that is supposed to change at L15 and again at L20 and there are no entries there that would modify that. In any case it doesn't seem logical that bard song abilities should be controlled by the CLAB files. They're unique abilities unrelated to the stuff CLAB normally seems to cover.

 

SO I am pretty sure that the BLADE kit really does refer to the Offensive and Defensive spins in the CLABB02.2da file, but I don't know what abilities are being applied to either SKALDs or JESTERs.

 

I also don't know where the progression of the Bard song for any flavor of bard is being handled if its not being handled here.

 

Also both BLADES and SKALDS are supposed to have a penalty applied to pickpocket and I don't know where that's being handled either.

 

My supposition is that I can add extra columns to the SKILLBRD.2da file to enable other rogue skills, but if I put it there, it seems to me it will enable those skills for ALL bards, and not just for jesters.

 

I can disable pickpocketing by simply removing the column for pickpocketing - but that will disable pickpocketing for ALL bards, I'm pretty sure.

 

However, if I can figure out the mechanism being used to apply the penalties for pickpocketing to BLADES and SKALDS, then it seems to me all I have to do is create a similar penalty for pickpocketing for JESTERS that would essentially nerf the skill entirely; then if I add the relevant non-thieving rogue skills that I want to SKILLBRD.2da, I can nerf them out using the same mechanism that nerfs pickpocket skills for the other bard classes.

 

Of course that presumes I can find where pickpocket skills are nerfed for BLADES and SKALDS and that I can expand that mechanism to encompass the other rogue skills.

 

Or maybe there's a better way and I just haven't found the right files yet.

 

There are a ton of files I need to find and figure out how they all fit together, including a bunch of stuff about spellcasting - but for now, can anyone help me with what's actually being done by those CLAB files and where the penalties to pickpocketing for SKALDS and BLADES are being applied?

[Mike1072]

CLABBA03.2da - for the BARD/JESTER kit. It has a string AP_SPCL751. At first I guessed that this enables the offensive Bard Song unique to the JESTER kit. But on looking at the other 3 CLABBA0x.2da files, I have no idea what it is doing (see below).

Yep, that's what it does.

 

Since SKILLBRD.2da has no other entries, no other rogue skills are enabled.

Simply adding to this .2da may or may not work; unfortunately, the way the .2da files are interpreted is not always predictable.

 

Here's what the IESDP has to say on this one: [link]

 

"This file defines pick-pocket skill of a bard per level (probably possible adding other abilities, but wasn't checked."

 

"These files are editable just by adding new headers according to those specified in SKILLRAC.2DA or SKILLDEX.2DA. The amount of these settings will not show up on the GUI."

 

For the CLAB files:

 

AP_xxxxxxx is enabling an always-available type of skill

 

GA_xxxxxxx enables an innate ability which can only be used once per day. Each GA_xxxxxxxx entry adds one to the total # of times the skill can be used per day

AP_ entries apply a spell to the character with the kit. GA_ entries provide the character with one use of a "special ability" / "innate ability" per day.

 

CLABBA01.2da is the basic BARD class with no kit. All entries are ******; so no skills are enabled for vanilla bards.

Rather, unkitted bards don't gain any unique abilities.

 

CLABBA02.2da should be for the BLADE kit - I'm guessing that the entries GA_SPCL521 and GA_SPCL522 starting at L1 and then occuring every 4th level are to enable the progressive Offensive Spin and Defensive Spin abilities, which increase by one (the # of times per day you can do it) every 4th level. This matches documentation about the BLADE kit abilities.

Correct.

 

CLABBA03.2da is for JESTER kit and enables one always-available type of skill - AP_SPCL751. I don't know what this is. If it's not the JESTER type bard song - and it seems to me it shouldn't be that - there is nothing in the JESTER documentation that explains this.

The SPCL751 designation refers to SPCL751.SPL. You can open the SPL file to view its effects.

 

This spell changes the bard song. Most kit changes are controlled entirely through the CLAB file (aside from standard stuff like weapon proficiencies). Some kit changes are hardcoded in the game engine, which sucks for modders.

 

CLABBA04.2da for SKALD kit uses AP_SPCL541 and AP_SPCL542. I have no idea what these could pertain to. SKALD has a unique version of the Bard Song, as JESTER does; but that is supposed to change at L15 and again at L20 and there are no entries there that would modify that. In any case it doesn't seem logical that bard song abilities should be controlled by the CLAB files. They're unique abilities unrelated to the stuff CLAB normally seems to cover.

These spells apply the two features of the kit - a changed bard song and a bonus to hit and damage.

 

I also don't know where the progression of the Bard song for any flavor of bard is being handled if its not being handled here.

The Jester and Skald use CLAB entries (AP_SPCL751 and AP_SPCL542) which refer to spells (SPCL751 and SPCL542) that contain an effect that changes their songs. This effect references a spell that contains the new effects of the bard song (SPCL751A.SPL and SPCL542A.SPL). This spell can contain different effects at different levels. I am not sure if the original bard song uses a normal spell in the game, but whether it does or not, you could change it by adding an effect to the unkitted bard's CLAB file similar to the ones used by the Skald and Jester.

 

Also both BLADES and SKALDS are supposed to have a penalty applied to pickpocket and I don't know where that's being handled either.

If you can't find it in the CLAB, it's probably hardcoded.

 

My supposition is that I can add extra columns to the SKILLBRD.2da file to enable other rogue skills, but if I put it there, it seems to me it will enable those skills for ALL bards, and not just for jesters.

 

I can disable pickpocketing by simply removing the column for pickpocketing - but that will disable pickpocketing for ALL bards, I'm pretty sure.

Agreed. This doesn't seem like the ideal way to achieve your goal.

 

However, if I can figure out the mechanism being used to apply the penalties for pickpocketing to BLADES and SKALDS, then it seems to me all I have to do is create a similar penalty for pickpocketing for JESTERS that would essentially nerf the skill entirely; then if I add the relevant non-thieving rogue skills that I want to SKILLBRD.2da, I can nerf them out using the same mechanism that nerfs pickpocket skills for the other bard classes.

 

Of course that presumes I can find where pickpocket skills are nerfed for BLADES and SKALDS and that I can expand that mechanism to encompass the other rogue skills.

 

Or maybe there's a better way and I just haven't found the right files yet.

You can change skills via spell effect. Check out the IESDP's list of spell effects (the link takes you right to some relevant ones). And just check out the IESDP as a whole; it's the best modding resource around.

 

So, your next step is to make a spell that alters skills as you desire, apply it in the CLAB file, then test in game to see if it works.

[ZenSojourner]

 

ME: CLABBA01.2da is the basic BARD class with no kit. All entries are ******; so no skills are enabled for vanilla bards.

 

YOU: Rather, unkitted bards don't gain any unique abilities.

 

That's what I meant. Is there a real difference between referring to something as a "skill" or as an "ability"? I get confused by this. To me an "ability" is one of the "innate abilities" which often seem spell based but follow entirely different rules.

 

This is how I've conceptualized it up to now:

 

A skill is something specific to the class, that has a progressive aspect to it - I think of things like pickpocketing as a skill, hide in shadows is a skill, bard song is a skill - these all have specific buttons enabling them for those classes that can access them.

 

But Berserk is an innate ability that you find under the 4 pointed star thingy. EVERYBODY has the 4 pointed star thingy, but there are different abilities (if any) under that. I can actually edit these in for specific characters via EE Keeper, so they don't have to be kit or even class wide. I would imagine there must be some way to do the same thing through BG, say if I wanted to make an NPC that has a specific non-class related innate ability, without having to edit it in by hand on the fly.

 

Is that the wrong way to think about it?

 

 

ME: Also both BLADES and SKALDS are supposed to have a penalty applied to pickpocket and I don't know where that's being handled either.

 

YOU: If you can't find it in the CLAB, it's probably hardcoded.

 

I don't think it is, because Song & Silence kit specifically states that these penalties weren't being applied by default, so they "fixed" that. Somehow. Here is some of the relevant info about stuff that was improperly implemented that they fixed:

 

- Blades not actually suffering a penalty to their Pick Pockets skill as the description states.

- Skalds were not getting a bonus to hit as the description states.

- Swashbucklers had incorrect maximum proficiency slots in Katana, Crossbow, Short Bow and Sling.

 

If it's hard-coded, they couldn't be overriding it, could they?

 

Thanks for the help. Must get back to the real life of boxes and wadded up newspaper (eg packing for moving, bleah!)

[Mike1072]

 

ME: CLABBA01.2da is the basic BARD class with no kit. All entries are ******; so no skills are enabled for vanilla bards.

 

YOU: Rather, unkitted bards don't gain any unique abilities.

That's what I meant. Is there a real difference between referring to something as a "skill" or as an "ability"? I get confused by this. To me an "ability" is one of the "innate abilities" which often seem spell based but follow entirely different rules.

 

This is how I've conceptualized it up to now:

 

A skill is something specific to the class, that has a progressive aspect to it - I think of things like pickpocketing as a skill, hide in shadows is a skill, bard song is a skill - these all have specific buttons enabling them for those classes that can access them.

 

But Berserk is an innate ability that you find under the 4 pointed star thingy. EVERYBODY has the 4 pointed star thingy, but there are different abilities (if any) under that. I can actually edit these in for specific characters via EE Keeper, so they don't have to be kit or even class wide. I would imagine there must be some way to do the same thing through BG, say if I wanted to make an NPC that has a specific non-class related innate ability, without having to edit it in by hand on the fly.

 

Is that the wrong way to think about it?

The thieving abilities are often referred to in-game as thieving skills. I use the term ability more generally. Mages gain spellcasting ability and the ability to wear robes and use wands. When talking about special innate activated abilities™, I try to be more specific.

 

However, the point I was trying to make is that bards have a lot of class features built-in and the CLAB simply controls features that are unique to that kit (in this case, the kit that is used when the character doesn't have a kit).

 

ME: Also both BLADES and SKALDS are supposed to have a penalty applied to pickpocket and I don't know where that's being handled either.

 

YOU: If you can't find it in the CLAB, it's probably hardcoded.

I don't think it is, because Song & Silence kit specifically states that these penalties weren't being applied by default, so they "fixed" that.

If a kit ability is not in the CLAB and it's not hardcoded, there's a good chance it doesn't exist.

 

If you install Song & Silence, you will find it adds a spell (or two) to the CLAB that has an effect to lower the pick pocket skill.

[Jarno Mikkola]

If a kit ability is not in the CLAB and it's not hardcoded, there's a good chance it doesn't exist.

The thieving ability for bards should allow the unlocking and/or disabling traps... and this is easy to try, just create a bard in BGII:SoA, and use the Shadowkeeper to edit the character to have the Unlock and removal of traps skills say 100...

And when you start the modified savegame.--- you'll notice that the bard can't do either (even if the trap is detected by Imoen) at the very first trapped and locked painting in the first room that has the golem guarding the door ... yeah, the thieving icon doesn't change to the unlock nor remove trap icon(meaning it's hardcoded to thieves only).