BG1/BGEE Items

[Dakk]

 

2) A giant claw sounds bad as ring (which admittedly does, but at least we players are used to it) but makes more sense to you as pair of bracers?

Fwiw, this was my idea. I have no trouble envisioning it on bracer slot for a number of reasons.

1) All in-game bracers/gauntlets come in pairs, hence if one hand is taken by the Claw you can't wear them - it's cursed anyway.

2) BG1 is filled with magical rings as it is, and there aren't nearly as much hand items

3) a Claw makes much less sense as a ring (and why wouldn't you put a ring on a claw? It's big enough, even it's bam has fingers)

 

I'd probably vote for a rewamp of it's abilities/usability flags. The wearer should (imo) become a bit more "beastly", and a bit less "human". I haven't really given much tought about the in-game implementation of this idea however.

Regain some HP when he kills something?

 

I mostly agree with this, especially as no. 2 & 3 are true and makes sense. And as long as the abilities/bonus stand out a bit, I agree that the random bonuses of vanilla Kaz-items should be revamped.

 

Correcting spelling should be obvious

[Salk]

Well, it's obvious there is no consensus in here.

 

But I find the comparison CoK and Necklace of MIssiles to be rather silly. The latter is just an example of a very dull vanilla item. It's practically a duplication of the Wand of Fireballs. WIth nothing really standing out or making it unique. The total opposite of CoK. That's why I personally didn't object to see it changed/revamped. There was a valid reason for it.

[n-ghost]

Btw, any (at least theoretical) chance of introducing BGEE items into vanilla BGT?

 

Somehow I doubt it, but still

[Dakk]

Btw, any (at least theoretical) chance of introducing BGEE items into vanilla BGT?

 

Somehow I doubt it, but still

I believe the general opinion is the BGEE items under no circumstances can be imported as is into non-EE. Because they generally have poorly written lore and are either redundant or have wonky (useless, or silly overpowered) abilities. Last I heard the consensus was that if there's no time to change them, they should instead just be outright suppressed

 

This is what Demi had to say (my underlining):

 

BGEE new items

No offense, but they did a really terrible job on these imo. I do need more infos though (e.g. item's backgrounds), if not the files themselves.

 

Rugged leathers +2: a plain +2 with a move silently penalty? Am I missing something?

 

Magma bulwark +2 : just a lighter plate mail +2? Considering how powerful Ankheg Plate Mail is (too much?), and that it doesn't take much to get that, I don't see much point in this new armor as it is.

 

Buckley's Buckler: Seriously? Vanilla BG1 had a buckler with +1 DEX and they added a buckler with +1 CON? Lamest concept ever imo, and +CON opcode causes the "infinite healing issue" unless they fixed it (I bet they didn't).

 

Moonlight Walkers: LOL Instead of making the Monk class balanced for BG1 they added unique items to their own NPC to make him viable. I'd consider a pair of boots with +2 bonus to AC kinda OP (+1 is enough), especially for BG1, am I wrong?

 

Glimmering Bands: another convenient Rasaad-only item (aka "monk's thac0 suck, let's add +2 to hit bonus to our NPC). At least this one is more balanced.

 

Belt of Antipode: Without SR V4 new ice-based spells I guess this item is pretty much pointless. At least it's a fun concept.

 

Adoy's Belt: +5 to saves vs polymorph/pertification. I don't know what to say.

 

The Golden Axe +1: I don't understand...TotSC already had Bala's Axe, did they think adding an axe with 10% chance of casting dispel on target is such a great idea?

 

Beruel's Retort +1: IR already added a "common" +1 returning axe, thus I guess this is completely pointless in its current state.

 

Night Club +1: how did they implemented the whole "+2 at night" thing?! I'm really curious.

 

Might Oak: is this just a plain club +2?

 

Hammer of dawn +1: corret me if I'm wrong, but non-detection on a hammer have very little "sinergy" value. Who the hell is going to benefit from it? A cleric-thief who cannot backstab with it?

 

The Chelsey Crusher +2: "sets apr to 1, +4 dmg", mmm...I always believed setting attacks per round to 1 didn't really worked (aka +x bonus would still apply over it, and maybe even warrior's bonus too). I'll test it asap. On a side note, with IR installed we already had a unique halberd, Suryris's Blade +2.

 

The Thresher +2: is this just a plain flail +2? If yes, they could have just used blun13.

 

The Stupefier +1: wait a second, let me read this again "25% chance to stun target for 1d4 rounds no save"?!? This is utterly broken!!! With no save this item would be OP even for BG2!

 

Harrower +1: a plain +1 longsword which is +3 vs undead. Yeah, because Flame Tongue wasn't enough eh?

 

Rancor +1: I'd need to know the character more to judge it. At least they used a unique ability, afaik using one of the few unique BGEE-only opcodes (though they could have done it the way KR handles Barbarian's Cleave).

 

Neera's staff +1: not much to say, it fits the NPC I guess.

 

Sling of Unerring Accuracy: are you kidding me?!? I already made BG1 "unused" slng03 work like this ages ago!!

 

BGEE new items

Mike just sent me all the BGEE files this morning and I'm starting to work on them. I said they did a "terrible" job but I was wrong, it's worse than that! The backgrounds assigned to new items is beyond pathetic...1-2 uninspiring lines for each of them. Overall these new items are so bad that even simply removing most of them would be a huge improvement to the game imo. Sadness.

 

FWIV I completely agree with Demi's assessment.

 

---

EDIT: Maybe I misunderstood you. Are you asking if IR will introduce EE-items to non-EE? If I had to guess, I suppose that most weapons that IR change could just as well be imported if they don't exist. So there could be a component "Introduce EE-items to a non-EE game". Then they'd be in BGT.

 

I'm purely theorizing here though.

[leania]

I'd wanted to remove all the BGEE-only items rather than remaining these, personally.

[Dakk]

I'd wanted to remove all the BGEE-only items rather than remaining these, personally.

My personal preference would also be to remove them rather than "fixing" them. Or more specifically; I don't think it's worth the effort including them in IR (I'm mainly considering the limited modding time of Demi here).

[Jarno Mikkola]

My personal preference would also be to remove them rather than "fixing" them. ...

The way you say this irks me a whole hell of a lots !

What are you meaning here ?

I ask cause I can't read your mind, but from what I am reading is that you would go and remove all the items from the EE game too, just to get rid of them ! The reason why they exist in the game is likely to be that the makers didn't want to add another x +2 item as a reward for doing the z quest, and so they made a unique item. Yeah, most of the items are quite generic, but so what ? There's only so much you can do with enhancements that are meant for level 1 to 7 characters where the +5 items are overpowered to the extreme.

Now then. If you intent to remove the EE items, what about the DSotSC, NTotSC items, ... the SoS items, CtB items, TDD items, Aurora's shoes and boots items etc. How deep in the shit pool are you willing to go and take us too to remove all the items you don't feel should be in the game just cause you find no use for them, after all you got the +20 hacksword via the console that only your characters stats and kit can use... or whatever. I know that some of those items are bad... but you are an idiot if you think you can go and remove all of them just cause you would like to...

 

Now, then if you saw the light in the above question/line of though, and changed your mind to not vote for the total removal of every magical item mod added or not from the game, making the game actually impossible to complete, then we can discuss what to go on to do with the existing items.

Now the item art can always get better... but that's not the point, if you are not an artist that can provide better images...

Now should the BGEE items be brought to the BG1 part of the BGT... there's no actual point to it as they are mostly part of quests etc. Now if Demi has the time to work on the items, then it's his time ... but I could see a few of them to be added to the to sell list in various places.

 

Now, if we go back, way back to:

Magma bulwark +2 : just a lighter plate mail +2? Considering how powerful Ankheg Plate Mail is (too much?), and that it doesn't take much to get that, I don't see much point in this new armor as it is.

The Ankheg armor might have been good armor, but you even made it better, so a bit ironic there by adding the +25% acid resistance, and also as it's still my belief that you didn't play the BG1 game completely without any instructions, you can tell me how easy it's to get the item with the instructions. But in 1998, it wasn't as easy as walking to the Naskel and sneak around with pushing the Tab button and finding the armor in the hidden compartment in the grass... you were more likely to have to kill at least 3 Ankhegs and carry one of the scales to somewhere and then find out that the smith could make it into an armor in 10 days and 2000 gold pieces later, while he couldn't give any real promises of what quality of armor it's going to be like, yes the bastard says it's going to be a plate armor, but looking at the 10 000 gold pieces worth full plate, 500 gold being the 100 pound lump of lunacy cockroach with you, and deciding to forgo it to get the armor was a kind of a big deal then. Without a FAQ to the game.

[Scourge]

Jarno considering other items from other mods make no sense. For a simple reason: if you wish to use such mods, installing Item revisions goes against the consistency that Demiurgus is trying to achieve amongst all items.

You aren't going to find a good balance if you plan to add 4-5 new mods adding a lot of items. So what's the point of adding Item revision? None, but if you like it you can install IR.

Beside, he asked to remove BG:EE items and I quite doubt that you can find these items ALWAYS from a quest (e.g stupifier being inside a inn getting dust in a drawer)...

So.... ??

[Jarno Mikkola]

Jarno considering other items from other mods make no sense.

So ... ??

Well, you see, the mod has more than one component, and if you notice, they will touch other items than just these native to the BG2. Besides, the fact is, that we are already talking about mod added items, when the BGT, Tutu and EE bring them to the BG2. So !!!

[Dakk]

 

Now then. If you intent to remove the EE items, what about the DSotSC, NTotSC items, ... the SoS items, CtB items, TDD items, Aurora's shoes and boots items etc

Yes, remove them. Remove them all. I don't like mod added items, but I'm not really expecting a component anywhere named "Remove all mod items". Instead, I generally don't play mods that add items - RR being one of the few exceptions.

 

Not sure why that would make you mad though? Or why an optional - and highly hypothetical - component in IR named "Remove EE items" would upset anyone.

 

I like IR. Especially the balance and selection IR brings. To each his own. To wit, I have the exact same attitude to mod added spells (these are often even worse); and I avoid mod spells like the plague. Because I also like SR, and the balance (again) and internal consistency of SR is hard to beat.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I don't like mod added items, but I'm not really expecting a component anywhere named "Remove all mod items". Instead, I generally don't play mods that add items - RR being one of the few exceptions.

THEN could you not ASK for the removal of those items ? YOU DO NOT USE THEM, whose to say that someone else does ? :blink blink blink: It's a choice, you can just not pick up those items ? Or did you just forgot the that there's that option ?

You could try and play the game with 6 bards and try not to need those +6 items... when your thac0 is at 12.

[Dakk]

 

I don't like mod added items, but I'm not really expecting a component anywhere named "Remove all mod items". Instead, I generally don't play mods that add items - RR being one of the few exceptions.

THEN could you not ASK for the removal of those items ? YOU DO NOT USE THEM, whose to say that someone else does ? :blink blink blink: It's a choice, you can just not pick up those items ? Or did you just forgot the that there's that option ?

 

I'm not sure I'm following.

I wrote this:

an optional component in IR named "Remove EE items"

 

How am I removing items from anyone with this (very hypothetically) component? A lot of people like immersion in their game, and finding something called Stupefier - that can knock out demi-gods - and leave it, kind of kills the aforementioned immersion. And then I haven't mentioned the very silly lore on a lot of other stuff.

[Jarno Mikkola]

A lot of people like immersion in their game, and finding something called Stupefier - that can knock out demi-gods - and leave it, kind of kills the aforementioned immersion.

So give that immersion, make the item to be a real stunner, not a demi-god knock out one... aka, add the vanilla base item(+1 mace) a stun damage(+10) and be off good with that, not a spell effect... You just run out of ideas or what ? It's not really that hard... or change the whole damage to only stun damage. Then the item has utility, as the player can stun those perky peasants without the need to worry off killing them and causing reputation loose.

[Istfemer]

Wow. The Imp is IMPossibly ranty today. And shouty!

No need to get all IMPulsive in this thread.

 

Yes, the game is kind of IMPerfect and it should be IMProved upon. Not that I'm IMPressed by his IMPartiality sometimes , but The Imp has a point here.

In BG1 I would prefer more variety in magic items myself. Especially in the accessories department.

It's true, though, that if Demivrgvs ever decides to include those 'enhanced' items into IR their stats & lore would have to be altered very significantly.

Some 'enhanced' items should possibly have their item types changed to something else.

---
RE: changing Stupefier to non-lethal damage.

 

I like this idea! This change together with a nice piece of matching lore would turn a bland and stupefyingly overpowered item into an IMPeccably unique and balanced one.

But why would you want to use Stupefier on peasants? Against peasants fists are enough of a force, no?

Unless your intent is to roleplay some weakling with a penchant for peasant-whacking ofc.

[Dakk]

I'm not even sure what we're arguing here, and even if I knew it's much too weird for me to engage in it.

 

My final comment: how can anyone have issues with a (hypothetical) optional component?

 

I wager a majority of IR players don't use the component "Movement restrictions in heavy armor". I sure don't. Does that mean that Demi is a bad bad person and we hate everyone who install that component?

 

There, done.