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Spell/Combat protection mechanics


scorpio

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  • How is spell shield dealt with? SCS states it has fixed the ‘buggy’ spell shield but I cannot tell how – worked to fix as vanilla, or some workaround? How does the interaction work with SR? Do I get SR spell shield, and AI has SCS one or what?

  • How does dispel magic work? The description to me would imply my (caster of dispel magic) caster level is used against the spell level (not the opponent’s caster level), or is it in fact my caster level vs their caster level? Makes a huge difference to how useful or otherwise dispel magic is. Just to clarify with an example: Say dispel magic by my level 20 mage against a level 4 spell will have 99% success chance in the former case, but 1% if the caster of that level 4 spell is level 25+ in the latter case.
  • Spell trap is not affected by dispel magic according to its description, is that true? Generally, is there any way to be protected from dispel magic other than spell immunity?

In the vanilla game, I note a couple points, and wonder if this behaviour is now different:

  1. Mirror Image/project image is always dispelled without checking (unless of course the enemy's running SI:Abj or is otherwise immune to the effect of Dispel/Remove magic)
  2. Spell-created weapons are always dispelled in BG2, but in BG1 SCS MMM are usually not dispelled by remove magic, which probably means that spell-created weapons are also always considered to be lvl 10.

I think I have more questions but my mind is a mess as is just thinking about these. Will post later if I have more queries.

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How is spell shield dealt with? SCS states it has fixed the ‘buggy’ spell shield but I cannot tell how – worked to fix as vanilla, or some workaround? How does the interaction work with SR? Do I get SR spell shield, and AI has SCS one or what?
SCS restores vanilla's 5th level Spell Shield (which SR fully disabled and old SCS versions didn't used) using a workaround I suggested ages ago (look here for technical details) and that Arda coded for SR v4. Once fixed Spell Shield works as it was intended in vanilla (the fix is there to solve issues, not to chance the intended behaviour), it simply protects from a single "spell protection removal" of any level (e.g. from 3rd level Spell Thrust to even 9th level Spellstrike), the first magic attack of that kind (be it a powerful Pierce Shield or the less powerful Secret Word) dispels Spell Shield, leaving the other caster's spell protections (e.g. Globes of Invulnerabilty, Spell Deflection, etc.) vulnerable from subsequent spell removals.

 

Unfortunately, ignoring that SCS would have used our fix before us (do not misunderstand me, I'm glad it does - I was not expecting SR v4 to be out soon back then considering v3 was already a really solid version) I had the quite bad idea of temporary using the same name for SR's 8th level spell protection. Now that you have brought my attention to it I'll upload asap a small hotfix to rename SR's 8th level Spell Shield into 'Greater Globe of Invulnerability'.

 

How does dispel magic work? The description to me would imply my (caster of dispel magic) caster level is used against the spell level (not the opponent’s caster level), or is it in fact my caster level vs their caster level? Makes a huge difference to how useful or otherwise dispel magic is. Just to clarify with an example: Say dispel magic by my level 20 mage against a level 4 spell will have 99% success chance in the former case, but 1% if the caster of that level 4 spell is level 25+ in the latter case.
I think we kept vanilla's spell description, but yeah, it might be misleading. Anyway, Dispel Magic is a "caster level vs. opponent's caster level" check. I'll try to make the description more clear for v4.

 

Spell trap is not affected by dispel magic according to its description, is that true?
Spell Deflection, Spell Turning and Spell Trap don't protect from Dispel Magic, but cannot be dispelled (you need a spell removal to tear them down).

 

Generally, is there any way to be protected from dispel magic other than spell immunity?
No. This is something that always bothered me, though I would not like players to go around with tons of not-dispellable buffs either. We are thinking to make Spell Shield protect from it for v4, but this is another story.

 

In the vanilla game, I note a couple points, and wonder if this behaviour is now different:
  1. Mirror Image/project image is always dispelled without checking (unless of course the enemy's running SI:Abj or is otherwise immune to the effect of Dispel/Remove magic)
  2. Spell-created weapons are always dispelled in BG2, but in BG1 SCS MMM are usually not dispelled by remove magic, which probably means that spell-created weapons are also always considered to be lvl 10.

In theory, Taimon's hacks which SR was using should make both instances work with a % chance similar to Dispel Magic checks, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

I think I have more questions but my mind is a mess as is just thinking about these. Will post later if I have more queries.Sure.
I hope I have been helpful and enough clear, if not, let me know and I'll try to explain myself better. :)
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Spell Deflection, Spell Turning and Spell Trap don't protect from Dispel Magic, but cannot be dispelled (you need a spell removal to tear them down).

 

The readme spell descriptions for spell deflection/turning etc have the line 'This spell will not protect the caster from a dispel magic. However, it will not be affected by a dispel magic, either.' Spell trap is missing this line hence why I assumed it protected from dispel magic. If the readme descriptions matches the in-game one, I'd recommend adding that line to avoid confusion for others perhaps.

 

Regarding spell shield: So I would have a level 5 spell called spell shield (from scs) and the level 8 one from SR with the same name currently available in my game? (Not at appropriate level to check myself).

 

For v4, I would say don't allow spell shield to protect from dispel magic, as it seems pretty universal that dispel magic bypassess all such things, besides if it is caster level v caster level the chance for the player to dispel is already so minimal considering SCS casters typically outlevel the party (a 6 man party at a level appropriate area) by a few levels, probably making it that 1% chance to begin with...

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For v4, I would say don't allow spell shield to protect from dispel magic, as it seems pretty universal that dispel magic bypassess all such things, besides if it is caster level v caster level the chance for the player to dispel is already so minimal considering SCS casters typically outlevel the party (a 6 man party at a level appropriate area) by a few levels, probably making it that 1% chance to begin with...

 

I agree, the only Dispel worth using in SCSII is the Inquisitor ability or you abuse some XP grind in at least ToB (Saragush's Fire Giant spam) to give your caster a decent level, so it'd be worth using it again.

On the other hand, I dislike Dispel and use it only as the very very last resort and only by a Inquisitor; cause getting stripped yourself off nearly everything in the worst case is counter-productive. And prot. from Abjuration is not uncommon in SCS to begin with...

 

And with Spellstrike + Pierce Shield, you don't really need anything else...maybe some simple pierce/breach spells for 'lesser' enemies or for re-casted stuff or if you just want to cast something ^^

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I find Dispel quite usefull. You don't fight only level 30 archimage in BG2/ToB. Againt low level mage, there is nothing better than some dispel/removel magic. (especially in sequencer)

 

edit : remove magic is especially usefull to dispell(cure) a team member who is under a charm spell. ( no risk to debuff your others team members)

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I had a question regarding how SR deals with Improved Invisibility. IIRC, In the vanilla game, if a mage had Imp Invis, SI: Div, SI: Abj, and then some spell protections and PFMW on, you couldn't Breach his PFMW or Secret Word/Pierce X/RRR his spell protections off because Imp Invis made him untargetable; you couldn't True Seeing to take off Imp Invis because SI:Div protected against that. The way to bypass was a semi-cheesy use of (insta-cast) Chain Contingency to cast 3x Pierce or RRR which allowed the auto-targeting to target invisible creatures.

 

But since you've made the Contingencies effectively out of combat abilities, how have you dealt with the above situation?

 

A) Allowed some spell attacks/dispels to target Imp Invis creatures through TobEx? If so, which ones? I don't see anything mentioned about this in the spell descriptions.

B) Must use the 3 AOE spells (Spell Thrust, RRR, Spellstrike). If so, does Spell Thrust get blocked by GoI since it's level 3? If so, since RRR only removes one protection, and it targets GoI and Spell Deflection/Turning above SI: Abj/Div, how are we supposed to get rid of the SI spells pre-Spellstrike?

C) Something else I'm not seeing?

 

Related question: What stops the various "dispel" type spells?

1) Spell Thrust gets past (and dispels) everything listed in its description, but as a level 3 spell, gets stopped by Globe, Deflection, Turning, Spell Shield, and Spell Trap, right?

2) Secret Word (level 4) only gets stopped by Spell Shield and Spell Trap?

3) And Pierce Magic is absorbed by Spell Trap?

4) Breach is blocked/reflected/absorbed by Minor Turning, Minor Deflection, Turning, Deflection, Shield of the Archons, Spell Shield, Spell Trap?

 

Sorry, just trying to understand what spells to pick for my sorcerer!

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A) Allowed some spell attacks/dispels to target Imp Invis creatures through TobEx? If so, which ones? I don't see anything mentioned about this in the spell descriptions.
At the moment, this is only done by recent versions of SCS, not SR.

 

B) Must use the 3 AOE spells (Spell Thrust, RRR, Spellstrike). If so, does Spell Thrust get blocked by GoI since it's level 3? If so, since RRR only removes one protection, and it targets GoI and Spell Deflection/Turning above SI: Abj/Div, how are we supposed to get rid of the SI spells pre-Spellstrike?
I don't recall off hand, but antimagic removal spells should bypass GoI, just as they bypass SD/ST. Only Breach gets stopped by them.

 

Related question: What stops the various "dispel" type spells?

Breach is blocked by all the Spell Deflection/Immunity/Turning/Trap spells.

Dispel/Remove Magic is blocked by SI:Abj.

Others are blocked by Spell Shield, but only if you use the appropriate SCS' component.

 

 

So yes, if you want better antimagic vs removal behavior, then SCS is currently ahead of SR.

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Okay, great. Thank you for clearing it up.

 

I think maybe it should be put in the spell descriptions of antimagic spells that literally nothing stops them except Spell Shield (if SCS installed). I always thought higher-level spell protection spells (Deflection/Turning/Trap) did. So basically in the context of the most up-to-date SR and SCS, the strategy is to always start off with antimagic (potentially two, if SS active) and Oracle/TS, then Breach (if you didn't use Pierce Shield), then go to town with melee.

 

Since neither SI:Abj nor SI:Div blocks antimagic now, that streamlines the system significantly. Thank you for the reply!

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Once fixed Spell Shield works as it was intended in vanilla ... it simply protects from a single "spell protection removal" of any level (e.g. from 3rd level Spell Thrust to even 9th level Spellstrike),

Really? I always thought that the intended vanilla behavior was that Spellstrike would take down all magic protections, including a Spell Shield and anything underneath it. I mean it's a 9th level spell. If it's stymied by a 5th level Spell Shield, the it would seem to me that Pierce Shield and Warding Whip end up being superior to Spellstrike - for being lower level and for having quite beneficial side effects.

 

So what is the point of Spellstrike in this system? (I mean in the SCS system - I forget whether SRv4 is changing things this regard.)

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So what is the point of Spellstrike in this system? (I mean in the SCS system - I forget whether SRv4 is changing things this regard.)

 

It destroys every protection in a single shot. No other spell removal has this ability. Spell Shield will block it, but once SS is gone, Spellstrike is the fastest way to get rid of protections. It also destroys Pro Magic scroll (albeit this is only for AI's sake).

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Turning+Spell Immunity (all)+Deflection+Goi + Spell Trap all stack. Ever seen a SCS Lich buff routine? Add Refinements Aegis as well. :D

SRv4 removes all Turnings. You still have Deflections (minor, regular, greater), SI:Abj, Spell Trap. And Spell Shield.

Deflections don't stack.

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Interesting. Here all these years I thought you could only do

[Deflection -or- Turning -or- Trap]

+ Spell Shield

+ Globe of Invulnerability

+ Protection from Energy/Elements

+ Mirror Image

+ Stoneskin

+ Imp. Invisibility

etc.

 

I really haven't kept up with what's going on with SR. I thought the super-cheese SI:Ab was being removed? And why eliminate Turning? (Or is it to limit precisely the kind of stacking we're talking about?

 

It still seems to me a Spell Shield shouldn't be able to absorb a Spellstrike. If anything I'd say that's what a Spell Trap should do: be taken down by the Spellstrike, but prevent the Spellstrike from working on anything else. (It's even suggested by the word "trap.") But that's probably not possible to implement...

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I thought the super-cheese SI:Ab was being removed? And why eliminate Turning? (Or is it to limit precisely the kind of stacking we're talking about?

 

It still seems to me a Spell Shield shouldn't be able to absorb a Spellstrike. If anything I'd say that's what a Spell Trap should do: be taken down by the Spellstrike, but prevent the Spellstrike from working on anything else. (It's even suggested by the word "trap.") But that's probably not possible to implement...

SI:Abj is replaced by Dispelling Screen. I don't know if it will be out in formal release however; there might be an alternative (Demi suggested a rather bold conjecture :D about it but I'm not sure how it would play out) .

SR is built around SCS compatibility, hence Spell Turning has zero meaning in the game. There's no way a SCS wizard will cast spells on a mage protected with it (unless he suffers from some buggy script), nor are players that dumb to cast against it (presumably). So it's replaced by line of Deflections (minor, regular, greater).

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SR is built around SCS compatibility, hence Spell Turning has zero meaning in the game. There's no way a SCS wizard will cast spells on a mage protected with it (unless he suffers from some buggy script), nor are players that dumb to cast against it (presumably). So it's replaced by line of Deflections (minor, regular, greater).

2 questions. 1) As raised over on the SCS boards, this AI logic/omniscience renders completely meaningless the aspect of these spells that lets them block X Spell levels. You could edit Spell Trap to only block a single Magic Missile, but if the AI doesn't have a Ruby Ray to dispel it, it will never try to attack you and "burn through" your protection.

 

So this rather aggressively simplifies the game's protection spells. It becomes a very simple spell/counterspell system:

Spell Thrust --> Minor Deflection/Turning;

Secret Word/Pierce Magic --> Deflection/Turning;

Ruby Ray/Pierce Shield --> Spelltrap.

 

So how does the new Greater Deflection fit into this system? If grants more levels of protection, but is dispelled by the same spells as Normal Deflection, then it's basically useless.

 

This is down to SCS, and it's a shame, because an aspect of the system is essentially deleted. What's more, contrary to the goal of SCS, it's a huge advantage for players, who have the option to "burn through" defenses even after they run out of counterspells. Perhaps ironically, SR changing everything to Deflection aggravates this problem, because Turning at least would disincentivize players from doing so. Maybe *all* of the deflection spells should grant 99 levels of protection, meaning you get perfect protection unless it is dispelled. Because, that's basically how SCS mages handle this right now.

 

...

 

Question 2) If I'm dumb enough to cast Spell Thrust at a mage with Greater Deflection, my attack fizzles. But that doesn't strike me as totally fair. I did rage him with a 3rd-level spell, so (to the extent issue #1 above is addressed) shouldn't Spell Thrust burn through 3 levels of his Deflection?

 

If it doesn't already, I suggest adding a minor secondary effect... -1 lore for 1 second, something like that... so the Spell Thrust is at least as effective (in the role for which it is specifically designed) as a Flame Arrow or a Dire Charm.

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