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Install options discussion


Mike1072

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So you suggest the user should read a WoT of equal size for each component they're installing?
Well if you thing it's important and that it help the people to choose their option, yes.

 

That's how all the games are being produced,
You forget one thing... and that is that as the IR is a game modification it can be chosen not to be installed, while the game has the same, it means that the game is bad... the game modifications generally bring more options for the player to play with, not less. Unless you opt the Improved Anvil approach of course... and in that mod, the mods author tried... well failed but succeeded enough to let the player only play the game as he visioned it to be played... so no more 6 bard etc parties... 2 super kensai-kit users, a super druid-kit, super ranger-kit, super-mage(Necromancer)kit ... need I say more ?

Edit: You are making a tweaks to the game, so make a tweak mod that has more options, not less.

 

SCS v25 (on a BGT+ascension install) has 125 optional components almost all of which can be installed independently. The total number of permutations
Erhm, but still the armor component would actually be able to use the very same install functions with every choice, it would get different inserts according to the sub-component, but if one works, it's highly likely that the others work if they use the same inputs.
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You forget one thing... and that is that as the IR is a game modification it can be chosen not to be installed, while the game has the same, it means that the game is bad... the game modifications generally bring more options for the player to play with not less. Unless you opt the Improved Anvil approach of course... and in that mod, the mods author tried... well failed but succeeded enough to let the player only play the game as he visioned it to be played... so no more 6 bard etc parties... 2 super kensai-kit users, a super druid-kit, super ranger-kit, super-mage(Necromancer)kit ... need I say more ?
Likewise you forget that we're only having this discussion because we have a very uncommon modding tool at our disposal, quite possibly (one of) the most advanced to exist.

 

For most any other game the basic principle remains - the author's vision. And I fail to see why it shouldn't apply here as well. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

 

And of course reducing the overall quantity of variations from 50 to 20 still brings more options for the player than vanilla game does. You advocate quantity for the sake of it, regardless of how it may impact the playing experience.

 

If anybody wants a non-standard option, they only have to ask for it and, if it doesn't take a lot of effort to implement, it will be included under the custom/ini/at-your-own-risk category.

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For most any other game the basic principle remains - the author's vision. And I fail to see why it shouldn't apply here as well. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.
Well, have you ever played a modified Dragon Age game, or say Obvilion/Skyrim ? Ouh yes, or Mass Effect 2. Yes, the game and mechanisms might very well be the same producer vision ones, but there's a lot of stuff that can be tweaked independently from each others and thus the mods are made reasonably compatible with each others.

 

And of course reducing the overall quantity of variations from 50 to 20 still brings more options for the player than vanilla game does. You advocate quantity for the sake of it, regardless of how it may impact the playing experience.
Ehm, it's not bad that one can do things if they wish... Yes, the player can jump from the very start of the BGT game to the very end and defeat the last enemy if they want with a console command... there's no mod that does this, it's not a shame, because the RPG is about the journey in between... who are you or me to say if the player wishes to play in full plate, cast spells and thieve as they like without any restrictions... after all they are dragging 5 random peasants with them in the party, if they like to do so.
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SCS v25 (on a BGT+ascension install) has 125 optional components almost all of which can be installed independently. The total number of permutations
Erhm, but still the armor component would actually be able to use the very same install functions with every choice, it would get different inserts according to the sub-component, but if one works, it's highly likely that the others work if they use the same inputs.

This has nothing whatever to do with the point I was making, which was about whether I was forcing players into one preferred style (as opposed to 10^44 preferred styles.)

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Ehm, it's not bad that one can do things if they wish... Yes, the player can jump from the very start of the BGT game to the very end and defeat the last enemy if they want with a console command... there's no mod that does this, it's not a shame, because the RPG is about the journey in between...

 

I could very easily write a mod component for SCS that caused every single creature in the game to turn permanently into a chicken three rounds after they are spawned. Only slightly less frivolously, I could break the "smarter mages" component of SCS into a hundred-odd components each corresponding to one particular spell, or indeed into 20,000 components, one per spell and one per mage. Each such choice would be idiotic. The range of things that can be achieved in a mod will always be vastly higher than the range of things that should be achieved, and the very fact that a modder includes a component in their mod is a signal that the modder regards that component as leading to a good game for at least a reasonable fraction of players.

 

We can put this fairly simply: (1) are you in favour of my dividing SCS into 20,000 components? If so, we agree that there is a need to control the complexity of the install order, and we're simply haggling about the details. (2) Do you think it would be entirely okay for me to include the chicken component in SCS? If not, we agree that modders have some responsibility for quality control and again we're simply haggling about details.

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(1)...
My point was that the choices made during the installation of the Revised Armor component have larger implications than choosing weather an NPC X uses the spell Y or nor. As a tweak mod it actually makes the game role set configurable more than a bit... so to say towards the house rules. And not the neighbors rules you don't like to play with.

But no, I won't agree to install your mod if it has 20,000 independent components. Well, unless there's a "take all" -option. :D The install order I would use would be the implied(by the requests), even if the readme says that it will crash the game if done in the vanilla order... as my game would crash then and then it wouldn't ... as I wouldn't install the darn mod. :D

 

And the purpose of this is that the player gets to choose which and how hard the change is going to be for him. But it also allows the player to make his decision that the mod maker has said could be implemented but the majority of the others dislike as the option as it won't fit into their RPG books, in general... allowing different choices in sub-components passes the virtue of not needing to make a definite choice for everyone.

As if they are not playing the same game, they can't see the same point.

 

(2)... hmm, you shouldn't give that options as it's not that close to what I would expect from the SCS... but I would install it one day if it was there... perhaps not the first day it was there... but that's besides the point.

 

... we agree that modders have some responsibility for quality control and again we're simply haggling about details.
Yees, that's it !
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Okay, you are (not entirely to my surprise on past form) completely failing to engage with arguments presented, so I'll stop bothering (but will continue using an ini file and recommending it to other maintainers of large complex mods with interdependent components).

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who are you or me to say if the player wishes to play in full plate, cast spells and thieve as they like without any restrictions... after all they are dragging 5 random peasants with them in the party, if they like to do so.
I'm the person who has to explain a "You're doing it wrong" each time I recommend someone to play with IR and they say "I've installed this mod you've recommended and casting spells at no penalty in full plate really sucks, have you even read PHB?".

 

For anything else I could have added, see David's posts.

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who are you or me to say if the player wishes to play in full plate, cast spells and thieve as they like without any restrictions... after all they are dragging 5 random peasants with them in the party, if they like to do so.
I'm the person who has to explain a "You're doing it wrong" each time I recommend someone to play with IR and they say "I've installed this mod you've recommended and casting spells at no penalty in full plate really sucks, have you even read PHB?"
This is why you have the recommended install sub-component in your setup... but you can also add in the custom sub-component that takes more inserts during the install phase.
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