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SR V4 Open Beta (last update 25 October 2018)


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EDIT - ninja' by kreso, you can ignore the Wall Of Text below. And that implementation of Non-Detection sounds great, I can't wait to play with it.

 

...

 

Protection From Magic Weapons, some of the cheesiest cheese in this whole steaming bowl of cheesaroni-and-cheese. There have been conversations about changing it in some way (most sensible to me would be just drop the mantle spells by one level and slot PfMW in between Improved Mantle and Abdolute Immunity), but it's been rejected because SCS AI is programmed to "expect to be invulnerable." With a mid-level spell!

 

This is probably the one single solitary part of Demi's work in SR that I don't like.

 

On-topic: this raises a bit of a conceptual problem with Non-detection and Improved Invisibility. The whole premise of II is that you can attack and cast spells etc, but doing so alerts others to your presence and lets them track you somewhat.

 

So Non-detection does... what? It's now acting like SI:Div, meaning you stay invisible (but still noticed and trackable) even if someone casts True Sight or Oracle etc. But it doesn't stop someone being *detected*. Maybe a name/description edit is all that's needed to clarify things.

 

On a further flight of fancy: the whole idea that II people can be target by attacks but not spells is kind of weird. I'd love to make this a bit more organic: maybe be targetable by both, if and only if you give your position away (functionally, add spell targeting to current II) but have some percentage chance, at the end of every round, to go full invisible again. (You stepped aside and they lost track of you... this behavior is a very common trope with fantasy invisibility, it would be cool to replicate it in the game.)

 

Or maybe a chance to go full invisible every 12 seconds, and a chance to become semi-invisible every 6 seconds... something like that to make II more of chancy combination of vulnerable and invulnerable, instead of just moving it one way or the other on the sliding scale of invulnerability.

 

(And yes, I already hear the objection: "but then SCS mage's wouldn't be the perfect darlings they are now!" I know. It's a game about rolling dice... heaven forfend we introduce an element of chance here..)

 

Edited by subtledoctor
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This is all weird because SCS deliberately has the component "antimagic spells can target partially invisible creatures". those are spells like spell thrust, pierce magic, secret word, spellstrike etc So you re free to dispel spell protections and you want to remove particularly dispelling screen and then hit the oppoennt with a dispel/remove to get rid of non detection and then a true seeing or a similar spell will solve your problem.

 

I dont understand what you guys mean rly. maybe i dont understand something. I havent played SR v4 this far to have mages with nondetection regularly.

 

PFMW? yes mages are powerful, but you re supposed to live long enough to be able to tear down their defences and destroy them.

Edited by geg_Ma3gau
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This is all weird because SCS deliberately has the component "antimagic spells can target partially invisible creatures".

Well, use it if you will - SR is otoh made with assumption this component doesn't get installed.

In other words, it's redundant on a SR install.

 

 

SCS AI is programmed to "expect to be invulnerable." With a mid-level spell!

The spell (pfmw) is meh, since it's countered by normal weapons (apart on select few oponnents immune to them and using pfmw). My idea was to make this a "protection from weapons" and make caster really invurnerable to all weapons, but Demi doesn't like it.

Or, even better - remove the PfNM from the game since it's crap, grant "invulnerability to normal weapons" to Mesthil & Fireshield, and keep PfMW as it is. Genius! :D

 

 

On a further flight of fancy: the whole idea that II people can be target by attacks but not spells is kind of weird. I'd love to make this a bit more organic: maybe be targetable by both, if and only if you give your position away (functionally, add spell targeting to current II) but have some percentage chance, at the end of every round, to go full invisible again. (You stepped aside and they lost track of you... this behavior is a very common trope with fantasy invisibility, it would be cool to replicate it in the game.)

 

Or maybe a chance to go full invisible every 12 seconds, and a chance to become semi-invisible every 6 seconds... something like that to make II more of chancy combination of vulnerable and invulnerable, instead of just moving it one way or the other on the sliding scale of invulnerability.

 

(And yes, I already hear the objection: "but then SCS mage's wouldn't be the perfect darlings they are now!" I know. It's a game about rolling dice... heaven forfend we introduce an element of chance here..)

I like this.

Edited by kreso
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But then i dont understand where this plan fails point it?

 

1)secret word etc removes dispelling screen from a partially invisible opponent

2)dispel magic removes non detection

3) true seeing etc

4) breach etc

What plan?

 

Ad.1) will work if your own caster has True Seeing active

Ad.2) yes, if the target isn't protected by Dispel Screen and dispel check is succesfull. You can also remove it with spell protection removals.

Ad.3) you need TS to be able to target "partially visible" oponnents

Ad.4) same as 3.

 

True Seeing does no longer fully reveal Imp.invisible enemies. It only allows the caster of True seeing to cast spells on them (and it has a few other benefits as well). Note that you can cast any spell at them, not only spell removals (Finger of Death and similar are very valid fwiw).

I'll make a "sort of a table" with spell removals/protections (how to counter what)etc. for Spell Revisions in a few days, I was already asked to but I keep postponing it (I'm a lazy sod, sorry).

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I think i ve secret worded imp invisible opponents without TS.

Probably because you have that SCS component. kreso is describing how SR works if you don't use that SCS component. In that case you would change around the order of the steps in your plan, to (I think) [3], [1], [4].

 

PFMW? yes mages are powerful, but you re supposed to live long enough to be able to tear down their defences and destroy them.

The spell (pfmw) is meh, since it's countered by normal weapons (apart on select few oponnents immune to them and using pfmw). My idea was to make this a "protection from weapons" and make caster really invurnerable to all weapons, but Demi doesn't like it.

I've already expressed my opinions on PfMW and I don't want to thread-jack here, so I'll spoiler my response:

 

 

I know it's not perfect, and you can tear down protections, and it has a gaping hole you take advantage of. But I really don't feel like dragging nonmagical weapons everywhere I go, just for this use. That's not "tactical," it's just annoying.

 

And setting aside that "tactic," (not even to mention what it does to AI attackers, who can't switch weapons), in normal playing the spell is basically as effective as the vanilla 9th level Absolute Immunity. That's not cool.

 

kreso I totally get your idea to simply make vanilla Absolute Immunity a 6th level spell and improve all the spells above it. And SR's Abs. Imm. is great. But I'm with Demi, I still think it's too much for 6th level.

 

My current idea is, change druids' Ironskins name to Stoneskin (just cosmetic), and then use the "Ironskins" spell name for an improved SS for wizards, replacing PfMW. Have it grant skins, and set *all* damage immunities (physical and elemental) to 100%, and then drop by 25% every 2-3 rounds. Then use vanilla Improved Mantle at 7th level, vanilla Abs. Imm. at 8th level, and SR's new Abs. Imm. at 9th level.

 

It only fully makes sense if you use "concentration check on damage" and "no spell disruption on zero damage" from TobEx. But, I do, so there you go. :p

 

Edited by subtledoctor
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Fwiw, AI can be "smart enough" to switch to normal weapons - Rogue Rebalancing already does so. SCS grunts will simply avoid pfmw-ed oponnent. I also don't use normal weapons, since it (imo at least) beyond stupid to have a 6th level spell that's countered by a simple piece of wood.

I also use concentration check, actually it and Refinements incompatibility are a total no-go for EEs.

 

@geg_Ma4gau

 

I don't know if Demi made SR change Inquisitor's True Seeing spell. If he didn't, it will still work as vanilla (fully removing illusions).

The way TS works is that in now more-less affects the caster, not the oponnents (apart removing illusions up to level 2 - Mirror images, Blur, hidden thieves, invis.potions).

 

P.S.

He didn't, nor for the Helm priest innate. :nono:

If you want to experience the new system, either don't use your Inquisitor's TS or download Kit Revisions beta - there Inquisitor does have a proper TS which is a copy of what your wizards/clerics would use.

Edited by kreso
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Or, even better - remove the PfNM from the game since it's crap, grant "invulnerability to normal weapons" to Mesthil & Fireshield, and keep PfMW as it is.

 

This is a very good idea, btw. Voting with both hands for it.

 

PFMW & Mantles & AI - iirc I suggested to make all four grant full weapon immunity, to remove once and for all any issues related to enchantment level balance. And instead differ them by duration, range of immunities (weapons, debuffs, elements) and area of effect (self, single target, party).

 

Something like:

Mantle (6) - immune to weapons, self, 4 rounds

Protection From Weapons (7) - single target, X rounds, perhaps longer casting time (iirc SCS only uses it to prebuff, so it won't notice the casting time change)

Improved Mantle (8) - immune to weapons and +Y save bonus, self, 4 rounds

AI (9) - immune to weapons/debuffs/elements (no direct spell immunity though, let Spell Deflection still play a role), party, 4 rounds

Edited by Ardanis
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Or, even better - remove the PfNM from the game since it's crap, grant "invulnerability to normal weapons" to Mesthil & Fireshield, and keep PfMW as it is.

 

This is a very good idea, btw. Voting with both hands for it.

 

Mantle (6) - immune to weapons, self, 4 rounds

Protection From Weapons (7) - single target, X rounds, perhaps longer casting time (iirc SCS only uses it to prebuff, so it won't notice the casting time change)

Improved Mantle (8) - immune to weapons and +Y save bonus, self, 4 rounds

AI (9) - immune to weapons/debuffs/elements (no direct spell immunity though, let Spell Deflection still play a role), party, 4 rounds

 

I also agree about fireshield/acid sheath. But I still think total weapon immunity for 4 rounds is too powerful for a level 6 spell. Maybe level 7... in fact you could turn PfMW (which SCS uses situationally) into a 7th-level spell, and turn Mantle (which you say SCS uses for pre-buffing) into a 6th-level Ironskin/Improved Stoneskin. Then make Mantle at 8th level (weapon immunity + whatever) and Abs. Imm. at 9th level.

 

And I actually really like the idea of Abs. Imm. covering a group, it would finally give the spell an advantage over Timestop.

Edited by subtledoctor
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Or, even better - remove the PfNM from the game since it's crap, grant "invulnerability to normal weapons" to Mesthil & Fireshield, and keep PfMW as it is.

 

This is a very good idea, btw. Voting with both hands for it.

 

Mantle (6) - immune to weapons, self, 4 rounds

Protection From Weapons (7) - single target, X rounds, perhaps longer casting time (iirc SCS only uses it to prebuff, so it won't notice the casting time change)

Improved Mantle (8) - immune to weapons and +Y save bonus, self, 4 rounds

AI (9) - immune to weapons/debuffs/elements (no direct spell immunity though, let Spell Deflection still play a role), party, 4 rounds

 

I also agree about fireshield/acid sheath. But I still think total weapon immunity for 4 rounds is too powerful for a level 6 spell. Maybe level 7... in fact you could turn PfMW (which SCS uses situationally) into a 7th-level spell, and turn Mantle (which you say SCS uses for pre-buffing) into a 6th-level Ironskin/Improved Stoneskin. Then make Mantle at 8th level (weapon immunity + whatever) and Abs. Imm. at 9th level.

 

And I actually really like the idea of Abs. Imm. covering a group, it would finally give the spell an advantage over Timestop.

 

votes for both of these like the idea of ab imm covering group that be cool

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But I still think total weapon immunity for 4 rounds is too powerful for a level 6 spell.

 

1) Mechanics wise it does nothing but require you to carry *vastly* inferior set of weapons for mage battles. This is just an example of unfriendly design.

2) Only aVENGER's AI tries to use normal weapons against PFMW, and I am in the state of war with [some aspects of] aVENGER's philosophy for AI design :p

 

I'd be much more inclined to add a power user option to disable normal weapon immunity for those interested.

Edited by Ardanis
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But I still think total weapon immunity for 4 rounds is too powerful for a level 6 spell. Maybe level 7... in fact you could turn PfMW (which SCS uses situationally) into a 7th-level spell, and turn Mantle (which you say SCS uses for pre-buffing) into a 6th-level Ironskin/Improved Stoneskin. Then make Mantle at 8th level (weapon immunity + whatever) and Abs. Imm. at 9th level.

 

And I actually really like the idea of Abs. Imm. covering a group, it would finally give the spell an advantage over Timestop.

 

I'm actually in favor of improving PfMW duration to match it's PnP counterpart :p . For AI, this spell is (apart Liches etc.) utter crap.

If Fireshield/Mesthil are granted PfNM, that would make PfMW sensible enough - every SCS mage uses a Fireshield of some kind; that would make this spell actually valid, moreover since Fireshields are no longer breachable.

Note that this wouldn't make the mages "invulnerable". One could still kill them with things such as ADHW, Cone of Cold, or whatever defensive measure they lack, be it Pro Cold, Fire, or magic energy. Imo, far better and enjoyable than pawning them with wooden staffs and non-enchated arrows...

AImmunity is in many cases far better than TS. It has better casting time, lasts longer, and you can freely use it against the top-end oponnents like Melissan or Demogorgon, where using TS is likely gonna get someone of your own party killed. I'd leave Aps.Immunity as it is, it's fully worth a slot.

Edited by kreso
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