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Demivrgvs

SR V4 Open Beta (last update 25 October 2018)

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I have a component called "saving throw overhaul" that treads much of the same ground as the SR save differences. It wouldn't be hard to turn it into a complete overhaul, the basics of the code is there. I'd be happy to contribute code and/or combine efforts, if the SR guys wanted to spin the saving throw stuff out as a separate component. But there are several problems I've run across:

 

1) Patching spells descriptions (generally by means of REPLACE_TEXTUALLY) in a way that allows for easy localization is a big PITA.

 

2) It's hard to catch every spell. My mod doesn't catch every AI-only spell, nor does it catch mod-added spells (aside from SR. From a coding perspective, it would be great to figure out a way to arrive at a system that uses effect matching to assign saves - like, every Charm effect uses a save vs. Will, every Fire Damage and Wing Buffet effect uses a save vs. Dodge, etc. But, as I think about it, that's probably not possible.

 

So if a static list is necessary, the array in my mod could be the starting point:

 

https://github.com/subtledoctor/Scales_of_Balance/blob/master/scales_of_balance/spells/save_list_base.tpa

 

Changing which spell uses which save is a simple matter of editing that .tpa file, and changing their names to Will/Fortitude/Reflex etc. is doable as well. If people are aware of any SPIN and SPCL spells that should be added, feel free to mention them. (This probably deserves a new thread, though.)

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After discussing with Demi, I was thinking about one point with revised tables.

 

For those who haven’t installed KR, like me, the paladins and monk won’t benefit with their saving throw bonus : lvl 1 for paladins and lvl14 for monk in KR. That way monk is capped at 6/6/6/6/6 and paladins have fighter/ranger’s table : 4/8/4/6/8 (maximized) instead of 2/6/2/4/6 which will undeniably lower paladins.

 

In KR the monk’s magical resistance has been replaced by +2 ST bonus in order to have the highest ST 4/4/4/4/4. But should it be maintained at 6/6/6/6/6, without KR, as the vanilla’s class has an high magical resistance or should it be modified at 4/4/4/4/4?

 

Revised tables have been implemented in a clever way. Each class has 2 good (4), 1 normal (6), and 2 bad (8) ST, which means no class is overpowered as each one has their own weaknesses and strengths. Fully and completely agree with it. In monk’s case, if its ST were untouched that’d mean that it has no weaknesses but not even strengths compared to other class. What’s your opinion with it?

 

As for the paladins it should be modified imo, otherwise it will not distinguish that much with fighters and rangers. A “savepal.2da” should be implemented.

 

Of course all these remarks concern only persons who don’t have KR in their configuration.

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Hi!

 

Seems that Spell Revisions interacts well with EET and EEs in general, I assume the installer checks what can and cannot be installed (Devas model) and that EEs already contain "convenience fixes" for mirror image/dispel magic/cure sleep.

 

Maybe you guys would be interested in converting the savings throws to a Fortitude/Reflex/Will model: https://s16.postimg.org/mqn8wcu11/Sem_T_tulo_1.jpg

Devas work for sure, I installed "convinience fixes" and it seemed to work just fine with them; I don't know what would happen w/o them.

Anyhow, what you're suggesting here is not a ST system tweak, you're suggesting a "naming tweak".

While I like this, I think it's a lot of work with descriptions for very little gain. But I like it.

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Well, tweak the names and you tweak what effects are associated with those new names. If you make the effort to change the names, it's worth making the (comparatively smaller) effort to re-think how they all work. IMO.

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Devas work for sure, I installed "convinience fixes" and it seemed to work just fine with them; I don't know what would happen w/o them.

Anyhow, what you're suggesting here is not a ST system tweak, you're suggesting a "naming tweak".

While I like this, I think it's a lot of work with descriptions for very little gain. But I like it.

Things that mess with the .exe are cause for concern, me (and most regular users) can easily change anything through the override folder, but messing with the .exe is another story.

 

Thought EE already had most convenience fixes included since it doesn't makes much sense having to install a 3rd party material to "fix" something that should never happen in the first place, like mirror image for example.

On a quick research found this topic here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/39966/mirror-image-and-fireball

Dunno if EE 2.3 includes it or not, but then again I thought the modders (YOU! :wub2: ) would probably know better and prevent SR from duplicating something the game already does, since it could lead into unpredictable behaviour or who knows (better safe than sorry).

 

For the saves its more than just renaming, since a For/Reflex/Will scheme removes the necessity of the extra 2, IMHO it was one of the best changes 3rd edition made. I also like the idea even more now that the UI can be adjusted to correctly display only 3 saves, but yes the amount of work for the entire game content to properly reflect these changes is huge, nevermind mods intercompatibility.

Edited by Meaningless

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After discussing with Demi, I was thinking about one point with revised tables.

 

Been long since I played a Monk, so dunno how they fare in comparison to a Fighter, I think Monks should have the best saves in the game, but they also have a decent magic resistance, so to counter the fact they are a powerhouse versus creatures that rely on magics and special abilites that allows a save, Monks should be a bit worse (compared to warrior classes) at AC and the amount of physical damage they can constanly dish out.

 

Since the only thing Paladins lose when compared to a Fighter is Grand Mastery, and they get extra saves, protection from evil (very good and useful spell all the way through the game) plus some other spell choices later on, I think the +2 on all saves for Paladins is a bit too much, +1 is fine.

 

Just my opinion in the subect, though I'm completely ignorant in regards to KR.

Edited by Meaningless

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Things that mess with the .exe are cause for concern, me (and most regular users) can easily change anything through the override folder, but messing with the .exe is another story.

Well, should you know, the two games use a different .exe files to start the game... and editing the BG2 one in the EE will result in non existing .exe trying to be changed ... which would lead to an error if it was done in nonsensical way... but as it is, as with the ToBEx, and the fact that the ToBEx is "included into the EE games", it's not (done in a nonsensical way).

Besides, the BGMain.exe hacks that some of the mods are filled with are done in the exact same way as any other file edits. You won't ever see they "are there" unless you know what to look out for. Though most todays mods use the ToBEx'es edits to the game libraries so the file itself is not actually edited that dramatically. But the BGT-weidu for example used(in the past) to edit the BGMain.exe .. It doesn't any more cause the ToBEx is used instead, which allows the start points XP to be select able from a externalized (.2da) file. But the Widescreen mod HAS to edit the BGMain.exe... but that of course is unneeded in EE games cause they use a different thing to archive the same thing... with expansions like the ingame zoom etc.

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have you a date for the release of SRv4beta14 ?

My eta was yesterday. Bad Demi,bad! :spanking:

It should be a matter of days.

 

... I was thinking about one point with revised tables.

 

For those who haven’t installed KR, like me, the paladins and monk won’t benefit with their saving throw bonus...

Paladin's +2 to all saves is hardcoded.

 

Monk class is fine too imo:

- without KR -> no weak save plus high magic resistance

- with KR -> no magic resistance but best saves in the game

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Paladin's +2 to all saves is hardcoded.

Yeah, and you can change it by applying a permanent penalty to all the saves(in the kits)... it might look odd in the level up screen yeah, but that's nothing new.

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Paladin's +2 to all saves is hardcoded.

Yeah, and you can change it by applying a permanent penalty to all the saves(in the kits)... it might look odd in the level up screen yeah, but that's nothing new.

 

 

Would you need to do the -2 at each level-up, or could you just apply it once at 1st level?

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:wallbash: how stupid I am. Totally forgot for paladins.

 

Fair enough for Monk Demi.

Edited by Valandil

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Would you need to do the -2 at each level-up, or could you just apply it once at 1st level?

This only depends on the .spl you use to make the effect, as you can set up different timers to be applied.

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Sorry to interrupt your discussion here, but is it possible please to give a date for the release of SRv4 ? It’s because I wish to see what an well-known horrible gnomish turnip-seller will do with these new spells in a near future…Summon Umber Hulks and Basilisks, whaow !

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