Complaint regarding BG1RE content (resolved)

[Thimblerig]

Honestly, Sergio, if somebody's got a problem with something I'm doing, I prefer to be told it straight. I might disagree, I might feel hurt, there might be some colossal misunderstanding going on - but at least I know about it, which means I can do something about it, or explain it, or simply just agree to disagree.

 

The advice to always read the ReadMe has been noted.

 

The writers of the mod are discussing unmissable warnings for the encounter in question, and whether the content should be adjusted or not.

 

I - we - appreciate your support greatly, but - it's okay for someone to make a complaint our mod. It really is. We'll deal with it.

[Sergio]

Honestly, Sergio, if somebody's got a problem with something I'm doing, I prefer to be told it straight. I might disagree, I might feel hurt, there might be some colossal misunderstanding going on - but at least I know about it, which means I can do something about it, or explain it, or simply just agree to disagree.

 

The advice to always read the ReadMe has been noted.

 

The writers of the mod are discussing unmissable warnings for the encounter in question, and whether the content should be adjusted or not.

 

I - we - appreciate your support greatly, but - it's okay for someone to make a complaint our mod. It really is. We'll deal with it.

Thimblerig, one thing is to rework something to make it work well, another one is to completely shape it up to be different. The writer of that encounter had a "certain" vision for that encounter. That's why he wrote it the way it is.

But if you came in, and try to aggro saying that it shouldn't have been there from beginning, I may feel that 1) your opinion wasn't expressed in a polite way 2) you are trying to ask a mod author to re-write a certain content, to match your own vision.

 

That frankly tells me that you shouldn't even use mods, from beginning. Because you are bound to found stuff that you won't enjoy. Meh.

[jastey]

As I second Thimblerig's point, I have to say - Glam - "rape porn"? Are you serious?

 

As Thimblerig pointed out, we are discussing the raised topic in the workroom currently. Even though I do criticize the way the topic was raised, we do agree that the used language and described pictures, even though it is only the fantasies of a game character and NOT an action towards the PC, can be felt as tried sexual assault by some, which is not our intent.

 

Why is the component in a mod called "Romantic Encounters"? Because it fulfills the criterias: It describes a sexual fantasy, and it has exit options at every instance that prevent any actions towards the PC that she did not give her consent to.

 

Still, we agree that the setting can cause distress in some players who do not wish their PC to be in such a distressing situation, regardless the fact that she can end it herself. This is not our intent, and I apologize for any offence this may have caused.

 

There will be a version update soon, with slight tweaking to the component's content (additional exit options) and heavily warnings both in readme and during installation.

[Glam Vrock]

The modification warns explicitly about specific content being for Adults. The presence of rape, sexual harassment and non consensual sex in general doesn't imply the author, the mod itself and G3 as community and host condone such events. It's like watching Kubrick's masterpiece Lolita and then accuse the people involved, including the publisher and distributors, to condone pedophilia.

There is a vast gulf between using rape as a serious narrative device and throwing it in as a "sexy" one-off encounter. If Lolita consisted of child sex scenes that were designed purely to titillate, it would be entirely deserving of condemnation. It doesn't. Do not compare Lolita to this, please.

 

 

As I second Thimblerig's point, I have to say - Glam - "rape porn"? Are you serious?

 

I am deadly serious. Let's summarise this one more time.

 

 

Again, a man threatens to throw a woman in prison to be gangraped, followed by execution, if she doesn't strip off her clothes and allow him to sexually humiliate and penetrate her.

 

I am not exaggerating this in the slightest. He threatens to hang you. He threatens to throw you in prison, where he says the guards will "have their way with you." Then he tells you to strip, flagellates you, and penetrates you.

 

There is absolutely no reasonable interpretation in which this scenario is not rape. A "yes" under the threat of death (and further rape) is not consent. And again, Charname goes off to this other NPC to tell him about the horrible experience she just had, that she's shaking all over, that she wants the guard thrown out of Candlekeep for what he did. You do not get to write that, then claim it's just a bit of naughty fun. It is rape. The mod, Romantic Encounters, eroticises a rape.

 

Now.

 

"G3, they got fix packs, they got quest expansions, they got rape porn." Do you want that to be an accurate description of this place?

 

Does somebody want to give me a straight answer? 'Cause I haven't got one so far, and if you can't say yes, with confidence, why are you defending this?

[Greenhorn]

"G3, they got fix packs, they got quest expansions, they got rape porn." Do you want that to be an accurate description of this place?

 

Sorry chum, that last article we haven't on the shelves. No, I don't. Do you? And I don't defending rape, I find it equally disgusting as you, probably, but unfortunately we have different opinions what constitutes it.

[Glam Vrock]

 

Sorry chum, that last article we haven't on the shelves. No, I don't. Do you? And I don't defending rape, I find it equally disgusting as you, probably, but unfortunately we have different opinions what constitutes it.

 

 

Well here's the thing, chum. If your "different opinion" is that threatening a woman until she allows you to have sex with her isn't rape, your opinion is incorrect.

[Greenhorn]

 

 

Sorry chum, that last article we haven't on the shelves. No, I don't. Do you? And I don't defending rape, I find it equally disgusting as you, probably, but unfortunately we have different opinions what constitutes it.

 

 

Well here's the thing, chum. If your "different opinion" is that threatening a woman until she allows you to have sex with her isn't rape, your opinion is incorrect.

 

Threatening? There is difference between words and action pal. If I threaten to cut your head does that make me murderer? Do you want to prosecute me? Or do you interpret that as a bluff?

[Glam Vrock]

 

Threatening? There is difference between words and action pal. If I threaten to cut your head does that make me murderer? Do you want to prosecute me? Or do you interpret that as a bluff?

 

 

By this logic, if I point a gun at you and make you give me your wallet, I'm not doing anything wrong because I didn't actually shoot you.

[Greenhorn]

 

 

Threatening? There is difference between words and action pal. If I threaten to cut your head does that make me murderer? Do you want to prosecute me? Or do you interpret that as a bluff?

 

 

By this logic, if I point a gun at you and make you give me your wallet, I'm not doing anything wrong because I didn't actually shoot you.

 

Heh, in my wallet you probably won't find much. Not worth of killing for.

[jastey]

Then he tells you to strip, flagellates you, and penetrates you.

And that is where you are wrong. He tells the PC to strip - yes. She can say no and leave! Did you consider this in your hate flaming so far? No, you didn't. For you, it's a minor point. Why?

 

If she does, then from there, it's all in the player's hands - again.

 

If you want this encounter to be a rape, it's because you play it that way.

 

Glam, again: If you play this as a rape, it's because you chose it. But that applies to every encounter! A stranger asks for quick sex? My PC didn't say no because I, the player, picked the affirmative answer - so it was a rape?

 

I already stated that the wording can be distressing to players and that we will soften it by giving reply options that level with the guard: The PC can see through his game and end it.

 

But the verbal threats will remain. What is the difference to "I will kill you?" that there is throughout the game? At every corner, someone is trying to force the PC into an action by threatening violence. Why are you so bigoted? If you'd be as sensible as you say, you shouldn't play Baldur's Gate at all, because it's all a big violence threat, the whole game! BGII starts with the PC being tortured, and there is no exit option!

 

Sorry, but this is far more than black and white, as you would like to see it.

[Glam Vrock]

And that is where you are wrong. He tells the PC to strip - yes. She can say no and leave! Did you consider this in your hate flaming so far? No, you didn't. For you, it's a minor point. Why?

 

Well, I've said it a couple of times already, but if you really want to hear it again:

 

This is not an excuse. If I submitted a mod called "Forced Encounters", in which Charname can bloodily sodomize a swath through the Sword Coast in pornographic detail, it would be rejected, even though you don't actually have to do it.

 

Whether there's an out or not, someone still eroticised sexual assault and put it under the heading of "Romantic Encounters."

 

 

 

 

What is the difference to "I will kill you?" that there is throughout the game? At every corner, someone is trying to force the PC into an action by threatening violence.

 

And is that intended to be sexy? "Romantic"? No? There's the difference, then.

 

I do not object to the presence of rape in a story. I object to someone taking rape, a vile act, an extremely sensitive topic, making pornography out of it, setting it next to other perfectly respectable work and saying "This is what we want to offer people."

[Greenhorn]

Yeah, still remember that Phaere rapist and abuser ( shudder ). Hey people, let's stop playing these disgusting, rapist and porn games and start playing... tetris maybe?

[Glam Vrock]

Yeah, still remember that Phaere rapist and abuser ( shudder ).

 

For the record, I also think this was badly handled. Depending on how this plays out, Charname pretty much does get raped here, and then to add insult to injury, your love interest acts like it's your fault, like they're the ones who've been hurt. I don't think Bioware thought this through. On the other hand, I don't consider "Hey, let's have sex" followed by a fade to black to be erotica.

 

Also for the record, this is not "hate flaming". Half the reason I'm saying this is out of concern for the website in general.

 

Let's say I advertised this encounter to people. "Hey guys, G3 has a mod that lets you play a sexy rape scene!" As I type this, that is the truth. Do you think that would reflect well on this place?

[Cahir]

Half the reason I'm saying this is out of concern for the website in general.

 

Seriously? And the other half?

[Glam Vrock]

I do not object to the presence of rape in a story. I object to someone taking rape, a vile act, an extremely sensitive topic, making pornography out of it, setting it next to other perfectly respectable work and saying "This is what we want to offer people."

 

 

I also worry about people seeing this content who don't want to. Yeah, it's all very well saying "You should read the entire readme", but let's get real; not everyone will. Maybe they don't want to spoil themselves. Maybe they just don't read instructions. And I think it's fair that people downloading a mod called "Romantic Encounters" will not be expecting a rape scene. Same way I wouldn't be expecting a rape scene if I downloaded Sword Coast Stratagems. Yeah, maybe I should've read the readme, but on the other hand, maybe the scene doesn't belong there in the first place.

 

Even then, the warning isn't particularly good. It specifically says "There's nothing too heavy-handed." Threatening someone with gangrape is pretty damn heavy. Even someone who wants to play that component may well be expecting some silly, light-hearted fun and instead be greeted with that.