KR mod structure

[subtledoctor]

From looking at the beta (I haven't had time to actually play yet), it looks like this is a one-off, all-or-nothing install. Out of curiosity, is the plan to keep it that way, or will there eventually be more granular options, (Fingers crossed for the latter more granular options!) like installing revisions on a class-by-class, or even kit-by-kit, basis?

 

 

EDIT: apparently this was in dire need of editing for clarity.

[Demivrgvs]

I'm not even sure myself how the installer will look like when all the KR stuff is done (Kits, NPCs revisions, Revised Grandmastery/Weapon Styles/Stats, HLAs, etc). A lot of stuff involves multiple classes and kits tend to "depend" on the base class (e.g. Berserker description says "cannot use Defensive Stance" but that doesn't mean anything if you still have vanilla Fighter), thus I doubt I can guarantee a "pick a single kit" option but I do not exclude it in the future, maybe via .ini options (similarly to how IRV4 has done for a lot of redundant or "controversial" install options of V3).

[Jarno Mikkola]

I'm not even sure myself how the installer will look like when all the KR stuff is done (Kits, NPCs revisions, Revised Grandmastery/Weapon Styles/Stats, etc). A lot of stuff involves multiple classes and kits tend to "depend" on the base class (e.g. Berserker description says "cannot use Defensive Stance" but that doesn't mean anything if you still have vanilla Fighter), thus I doubt I can guarantee a "pick a single kit" option but I do not exclude it in the future, maybe via .ini options (similarly to how IRV4 has done for a lot of redundant or "controversial" install options of V3).

And you can't just make an "install all"/"install default" button instead of the .ini solution to the .tp2 file ? It's the lack of trying that really displeases me with this ... and then putting things to more difficult place, the .ini file cannot be configured inside the archive file in the contingency that you want to make an auto install, but the .tp2 answers can. Well, k, it's more difficult, it can be done... but really ?!?

 

PS, erhm the above is hmm said in the off tune, sorry about that, but I swear I can't say it in other way without it sounding hollow somehow, I am apologetic about the tune, but you should know me well enough to not get fended about it. K?

[kreso]

kit-by-kit

Fwiw, I think that's an outright awful soultion.

It's fine as it is (altough I'd put HLA tweaks as a seperate option, and merge Grandmastery tweak into Kits).

[n-ghost]

The main question here probably is how would KR stack with other kit revision mods.

 

(it won't at all imo, too much work and overhauling involved already)

[subtledoctor]

 

 

kit-by-kit

Fwiw, I think that's an outright awful soultion.

It's fine as it is

Sorry, I didn't actually mean to advocate a kit-by-kit install, that wouldn't make much sense for the mod or for the player. The four base kits in each class should, first and foremost, be balanced against each other. Class-by-class would make the most sense.

 

But I very much disagree that "it's fine as is." As n-ghost points out the question is really about compatibility with other mods. What if a player loves KR's ranger and thief revisions, but wants to use Divine Remix for clerics? What if a player only wants this for warriors, and uses DR for priests and RR+S&S for rogues and Tome & Blood for mages and sorcerers?

 

"As is," the implied answer is "those are not valid choices, those players are wrong/dumb/not worth worrying about." It is slightly, subtly, disrespectful. Not intentionally so (I hope!), but in practice, a little bit.

[kreso]

but wants to use Divine Remix

You took a very bad example. DR (unfortunately) is uncompatible with pretty much everything, including KR Rangers and Paladins (one has to use a specific install order, and even then, they're not in the Sphere system...).

Second, I don't know why KR should aim to be "compatible" with mods that do the very same thing. By default, it should be incompatible.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I don't know why KR should aim to be "compatible" with mods that do the very same thing. By default, it should be incompatible.

Well the point here is that the individual components do NOT need to be compatible with the other mods, but you sure should look into making the non direct opposite concepts not entirely incompatible. So the Rogue Rebalance should work with all the KR stuff that's not directly touching the Rogues(only).

The Divine Remix is actually good example, yeah, it takes out the Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers, Monks... but leaves the Fighters, Mages and Rogues out. To what comes to the "kit" components. But you still have the overarching rules (usability tweak, hitpoint table, revised grandmastery-thac0-saves-tables and xp progression), from the KRv20 for example.

[subtledoctor]

 

but wants to use Divine Remix

You took a very bad example. DR (unfortunately) is uncompatible with pretty much everything, including KR Rangers and Paladins (one has to use a specific install order, and even then, they're not in the Sphere system...).

Second, I don't know why KR should aim to be "compatible" with mods that do the very same thing. By default, it should be incompatible.

 

I know DR has compatibility issues - mostly with SR - but that is very much not the point. The point is just to say there are various mods that affect various aspects of the game in a bounded, modular way, and many people really like them. DR only affects classes with divine powers, so why shouldn't it co-exist with the parts of KR that don't involve divine powers?

 

Demi is designing KR and Demi may well play this game with just KR/SR/IR/SCS and think that is a perfect setup. But, newsflash, there are people out there with different tastes. Some people may really, really love playing with the "Wizard Slayer Rebalancing" mod, and they might also really like what Demi is doing with thieves in KR. "Perfect," the guy says, "I'll play with both, there is no technical reason why each shouldn't be able to co-exist." And then he comes here and sees "I don't know why KR should aim to be compatible." Not because of technical impossibility, but just because of attitude.

 

Frankly if that's the case - or if the mod is being designed in such a way that it is technically impossible to have modular components - then it seems like it will suffer from precisely the same flaw that you just accused DR of. Most people don't use DR anymore for that reason, and I for one will probably stay away from KR for the same reason.

 

And to be crystal clear, I'm not being petulant or insulting Demi's skill or creativity; I'm offering constructive feedback on an issue I saw with the beta that I think may limit the mod's appeal. DR was great, and now it's dead; I should hate to see the same thing happen to all the work that's gone into this.

[kreso]

DR only affects classes with divine powers, so why shouldn't it co-exist with the parts of KR that don't involve divine powers?

It can, ofc. If one is willing to play around with it, it's compatible even with KR rangers/paladins. That's probably beyond the skill of an average EE2 15-year player (no pun intended....I started playing BG2 at 15..) who downloads crapton of mods and doesn't really pay attention to either Readme or anything else. Or, hasn't the time to devote himself to solving compatibility issues.

 

 

if the mod is being designed in such a way that it is technically impossible to have modular components

It's not.

If someone wants aVenger's WS, simply install it over KR, voila, fully compatible. Whatever's latest in line will be in game. What I'm saying by "incompatible" is fairly simple - you've got 4 fighter kits, 4 paladins, thieves, rangers etc.

Ofc it is "compatible" with other mods that tweak those kits as well, but I guess it's common sense that if you install two mods that tweak the same thing, only one will actually work.

This would bring KR to a number of install options which exceed the number of game kits (kind of crazy when you think of it).

2nd, and more importantly, I frankly don't understand the whole "compatibility/modularity" thing.

Should someone who creates a mod pay due care to be compatible with 2000 mods that exist today, and create an installer with 100 options to choose from?

It kind of gets a bit confusing, not to mention not everyone wants "an uber-hacked-hand-picked mod install" (I actually do, but that's beside the point here); but simply wants to have fun with the game (and not waste 30 minutes going through 100+ options which he doesn't even understand correctly. Or simply doesn't care.).

Don't even get me started on "install order" procedures; it's no wonder 80% of people simply use BWS to do the work for them.

Pleasing everyone will eventually please no-one.

An example:

Use KR "Revised THAC0" + RR "Thief Kit Revisions". Play a swashbuckler.

Where's your THAC0 at at level 11?

So now KR should be taking this into account (THAC0 would be very, very good, better than kensai)? And 10000s of such possible combinations?

I do miss the days when you had The Darkest Day, 400 MB all-or-nothing overwrite combo, screw Weidu patching. You didn't want extra kits? Well, that's a shame....

 

I for one will probably stay away from KR for the same reason.

Ooookay.

[spanyam]

Having played around with KR for a while, I notice that most things here aren't "incompatible" with other mods, but some KR components do rely on each others' presence when it comes to game balance.

 

For example, installing the revised THAC0 progression without the nerfed XP progression would end up tremendously beefing up Thieves (especially the multi- or dual- variety), as their base THAC0 is better by a whole 5 points from Vanilla. Vice versa, if you take just the XP progression, you pretty much set yourself up for Hard Mode the whole game.

 

All in all, the revisions mods seem to be building towards a certain uniform standard of game balance / challenge (what exactly is that standard doesn't seem to be defined yet), where each mod or change relies on the others' presence to a certain extent. There are of course some components that can be included or omitted without a massive difference, but there are those that are so drastic that they necessitate the presence of other balancing components.

[subtledoctor]

"Whatever's installed later wins" is not actually true, plenty of mods append and patch files and won't just overwrite KR's stuff.

 

This would bring KR to a number of install options which exceed the number of game kits (kind of crazy when you think of it).

 

Not sure how you count that, all I'm suggesting is something like:

 

1) Install Fighter and Barbarian Revisions? [ Install / No / Quit ]

2) Install Ranger Revisions?

3) Install Paladin Revisions?

4) Install Cleric Revisions?

5) Install Druid Revisions?

6) Install Thief Revisions?

7) Install Bard Revisions?

8) Install Wizard and Sorcerer Revisions?

9) Install Monk Revisions?

 

... and then the little stat/xp/etc. tweak components. There are over 40 kits in the vanilla game. I'm talking about ~12 total components total. (I agree going kit-by-kit would be kind of absurd even if there weren't any technical hurdles.)

 

installing the revised THAC0 progression without the nerfed XP progression would end up tremendously beefing up Thieves (especially the multi- or dual- variety), as their base THAC0 is better by a whole 5 points from Vanilla. Vice versa, if you take just the XP progression, you pretty much set yourself up for Hard Mode the whole game.

 

Right, using one without the other would be very unbalanced. and yet those components are separate. We here might only install both or none, but hey who knows, maybe a player out there wants to play the unbalanced way. That option works fine with the THAC0 and XP components; it seems like it would be better if the same were the case with the class components as well.

[Demivrgvs]

@Subtledoctor, Kreso counted a crazy amount of install options because the whole discussion started from you crossing your fingers for a kit-by-kit solution (see your first post). A class-by-class install is much more reasonable imo, and I think that's what I will be doing.

 

All in all, the revisions mods seem to be building towards a certain uniform standard of game balance / challenge (what exactly is that standard doesn't seem to be defined yet), where each mod or change relies on the others' presence to a certain extent. There are of course some components that can be included or omitted without a massive difference, but there are those that are so drastic that they necessitate the presence of other balancing components.

This ^

 

@spanyam, overall Revisions mods are not actively trying to change the difficulty level but to balance all the options given and offer more variety. In this case to make sure every kit is as playable, effective, unique and fun as possible. The very rare cases when I actively do something about the game difficulty I generally decide to not make the game easier, but I doubt my mods can make the game noticeably harder. I rely on SCS for that job.

[kreso]

"Whatever's installed later wins" is not actually true, plenty of mods append and patch files and won't just overwrite KR's stuff.

And those mods are......? There aren't really many mods that modify base kits. Iirc (tho I may be wrong) one of the first was Six's Kitpack. And you have some tweaks to Archer kit as a solo package. You have 3rd Edition Monks here at G3. A few WSlayers (aVenger, RPG Dungeon version, and I think one more), two or three Beastmaster versions.

There's Knight Kits as a 2nd Edition BG2 conversion, German only (it's an amazing mod).

Now, which of these won't just overwrite KR version of a kit? I may be missing something, enlighten me. And no, I don't count aTweaks "Give paladins immunity to disease" as a kit mod.

 

 

Not sure how you count that

Well, for full modularity (i.e. say someone wants vanilla Monk) you'd have to put Monks a sole install option. Ditto all others (it perfectly viable and possible someone will like Archer, but hate BM, etc.). Or that someone won't like Revised Spellcasting tables.

Where do you draw the line?

In all honesty, one of the best solutions for mods I've seen is; brace yourself; Improved Anvil. It doesn't care about what player wants from the mod.

You got one single install question : "Do you want to install this mod, Y/N?". And it changes everything it needs, icluding enemies, items, upgrades, NPCs, spells, tables, additional content, portraits etc. Done.

Bugs - zero.

The worst installer I've seen (and I've seen plently, from lesbian Kobolds to mages who heal themselves from slashing damage) is a relatively new mod from EE forums (Overhaul). It litteraly asks you about every-little-thing. I kid you not, it's got:

 

1) install extra attack for wizard

2) install extra attack for bard

3) install extra blah blah

then

1) install extra attack only

2) delayed from proficiency only

3) both additional and delayed

then

1) allow HM for cleric

2) allow HM for thief

blah blah up to druids

then

1) x can use spears

1b) can use spears with mastery

1c) can use spears with HM

then.....

....... you get the point. The whole mod has about 90 (!) questions. Take SCS, which is both a very modular AI mod and a Tweakpack. Not even it has 90 (!) install options. Wtf?!

 

Modders seem to expect everyone to

a) know what they're doing

b) have supreme gaming experience

c) read Readmes not once, but a couple of times

d) actually understand what they'll be getting

e) understand dependancies in between mod components and mod compatibility

 

I assure you, they don't. And most players shouldn't.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I assure you, they don't. And most players shouldn't.

So is it really that hard to...

 

 

...just make an "install all"/"install default" button instead of the .ini solution to the .tp2 file ?

Yes, this coming from a mod maker whose current mod purposely fails(and there's a few errors) to install if you select not to like the solution proposed, as that allowed exit too, I asked help and will setup a bit better next time... but anyways, there's actually more than a million ways to setup the (G3) BG2 Fixpack if you notice, the reference is somewhere, it's because some of the fixes can be considered to be tweaks and yeah by your logic you can consider it a bad mod, but still the usual player does choose to install all the components in the very same order they come out of the package.

 

The reason I really hate the .ini stuff is that it's out of the usual install procedure. I DON*T WANT TO LEARN IT, too.