Opposite schools and specialist mages

[Demivrgvs]

Interesting stuff there subtle. I still think KR is not going to focus on restricted schools but rather on encouraging each specialist to focus on their "role".

 

Btw, some of those 2x restrictions would create more balance issues imo:

- Abjurer without Alteration (Stoneskin, Vocalize) and Illusion (Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, etc.) is too much hampered imo

- Conjure would still be by far the best pick even if IR's Divination spells are somewhat cool now (Moment of Prescience in particular imo)

- Diviner losing Conjuration and Abjuration would make them really UP, especially without SR because vanilla had no alternatives to Abjuration defensive layers

[kreso]

@ Subtledoctor - thank you, appreciated.

 

@ Demi - I wouldn't use this as a "standalone". I'd tweak the kits as well, to make sure someone actually *considers* Abjurers and Diviners.

Since SCS uses 4 types (Necros, Invokers, Enchanter, Conjurer) these would usually get "inborn" bonuses (since I hate double standards)

like saves bonus vs respective type, +x elemental damage for Invoker, charm immunity for Enchanters etc. I'm only not sure about what Conjurers would get so that it benefits AI as well.

The other kits I'd buff via usable innates as well, since AI makes no use of them.

Examples:

Transmuter could get Alchemy HLA (with a bit different potions, no "potion usable by thieves" and similar crap), Telekinetic fist, Physical Enchantment (coupled with Tenser/Shapechange you've got a fighter/mage here, just less broken)

Abjurer - Protective Ward (+1,+2, +3 AC aura), maybe innate Banishment 1xday, resistances to damage. Finally a real AC-wizard tank who you'd want on front lines, and a kit I'd consider.

Illusionist - Blinding Ray (usable at will) + innate Invisibility Field, at level 20 - innate which creates a powerful Shadow monster(s), 1x/day.

Diviners could be ok with Diviner's luck early on, considering the loss of Abjuration. Something really powerful at level 20, like permanent invisibility detection so they can cast vs invisible or similar bonus (large save bonus? Maybe Second Chance or something similar) would also be fitting.

 

Making the spells needed and CLABs would probably take no more than 2 hours, if I could salvage some bams/animations from TDD it would be great.

[subtledoctor]

Interesting stuff there subtle. I still think KR is not going to focus on restricted schools but rather on encouraging each specialist to focus on their "role".

Oh yeah, I'm with you on that. This was just for kreso; I am going to completely eliminate opposition schools, as described here:

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/629335/#Comment_629335

 

(Actually I was going to contact you to talk about borrowing SR's Regeneration spells to give to my Transmuters... I'll PM you.)

[kreso]

Ok. I got this working for Invokers.

I'm udecided however - how much bonus elemental damage should Invokers do (I'd only use Fire/Cold/Electric bonuses)?

I'm thinking somewhere around 30%. This I think is enough of a bonus (should specialists keep extra slots? They probably should...) to offset the fact they can't use a single Conjuration or Enchantment spell. Their Dragon's Breath should really be a blast

[Jarno Mikkola]

Subtledoctor, hmm, you could actually use different spell/upgraded spells for the specialists, and set them to be learned when the kit class gets the level they can be casted on... so level 1 spells at level 1, level 2 spells at level 3 etc. And set the scrolls to be unlearnable by their kit, so effectively the Fireball spell won't be learn-able by the Invoker from a scroll cause he get's a better one from the kit itself.

This will allow the spell text to reflect the changes, and have variate of effects that the vanilla spells won't have, like the Abjuration effect, cast-able on to everyone. Yeah, this adds a lots of work on a few effect fields, as the removal of the spells needs to be added, but it might be worth it. And you could balance the normal spells and specialist spells with faster casting times(so add +1 to all the casting timers or something). The non specialist of course would then be able to cast everything faster as they would get a bonus.

 

How much bonus elemental damage should Invokers do (I'd only use Fire/Cold/Electric bonuses)? I'm thinking somewhere around 30%.

Well, the 30% might be good if it's the vs. two spell types not castable... but I would bet it to be too much on the subtledoctor's approach, with no opposite spells.

[kreso]

Subtledoctor, hmm, you could actually use different spell/upgraded spells for the specialists, and set them to be learned when the kit class gets the level they can be casted on... so level 1 spells at level 1, level 2 spells at level 3 etc. And set the scrolls to be unlearnable by their kit, so effectively the Fireball spell won't be learn-able by the Invoker from a scroll cause he get's a better one from the kit itself.

AI won't use them this way. They're scripted to cast regular Fireballs.

 

 

 

How much bonus elemental damage should Invokers do (I'd only use Fire/Cold/Electric bonuses)? I'm thinking somewhere around 30%.

Well, the 30% might be good if it's the vs. two spell types not castable... but I would bet it to be too much on the subtledoctor's approach, with no opposite spells.

 

Yeah, hence the two banned schools, both of which are very painful to loose (no Power Words, Webs, Flame Arrows, and a crapton of other good stuff).

Invokers gonna invoke! And be damn good at it ! I'll probably have mage kits done tomorrow/day after tomorrow, if anybody wants to use them I'll upload my files somewhere. I won't tweak them much (Invokers get only this damage bonus, and that's it, nothing else) , but it will certainly add flavour.

[Jarno Mikkola]

AI won't use them this way. They're scripted to cast regular Fireballs.

So ? Yeah, and it's also scripted to not aim the normal(vs. Ultra) Fireball to an area where it's friends are, and thus the Ultra spells ability to ignore friendly target get's wasted on them. Besides, the kit of the enemy are not ever revealed to the player, so it doesn't matter if they won't be using the special spells. And they learn the spells they wish(or mod maker makes them learn) as it doesn't necessarily need to make sure the kitted char can actually cast the spells according to the restrictions within the game. I just saw a dragon cast the Heal spell (a spell it didn't even know or had ever memorized) on itself and be very pleased at it.

IF

!Detect([PC])

HPLT(Myself,50)

CombatCounter(0)

THEN

RESPONSE #100

SetGlobal("RemoveMagic","LOCALS",0)

SetGlobal("WingBuffet","LOCALS",0)

SetGlobal("Haste","LOCALS",0)

SetGlobal("DRAGONFEAR","LOCALS",0)

ForceSpell(Myself,CLERIC_HEAL) // SPPR607.SPL (Heal)

END

 

 

[subtledoctor]

kreso, I'm figuring on a 20-25% damage increase for Invokers (just fire & lightning damage, maybe magic damage too). But mine will have no restricted spells; if you're restricting 2 schools 30% could be okay. But I wouldn't go higher than that, it would get crazy...

Subtledoctor, hmm, you could actually use different spell/upgraded spells for the specialists, and set them to be learned when the kit class gets the level they can be casted on... so level 1 spells at level 1, level 2 spells at level 3 etc. And set the scrolls to be unlearnable by their kit, so effectively the Fireball spell won't be learn-able by the Invoker from a scroll cause he get's a better one from the kit itself. This will allow the spell text to reflect the changes, and have variate of effects that the vanilla spells won't have, like the Abjuration effect, cast-able on to everyone. Yeah, this adds a lots of work on a few effect fields, as the removal of the spells needs to be added, but it might be worth it.

Actually that was precisely my first idea Jarno. But it just seems a little weird, aesthetically, that you can't use scrolls in your specialty. Plus, what if you mistakenly erase one of the special spells? You'll be screwed.

 

So instead I think I can use .EFFs in the scrolls' item abilities so that specialists will learn the new spells, and other wizards will learn the normal ones. Hopefully it won't be too much work - I'll only be doing this for Charm spells for Enchanters. The other specialists will only involve patching in spell abilities with .EFFs and/or adding some CLAB abilities.

 

Separately, I probably will also have specialists learn spells in their school automatically, like you say. Just to encourage players to use them more.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Plus, what if you mistakenly erase one of the special spells? You'll be screwed.

Well you wait for another level up and bada-bing, your spells are restored.

[kreso]

kreso, I'm figuring on a 20-25% damage increase for Invokers (just fire & lightning damage, maybe magic damage too).

I'd love to give them magic damage, but Magic Missile (this is imo the "purest" invocation spell) shares damage type with ADHW, and that's a big no-no.

 

@Jarno, the only mod which kits mages "properly" is SCS. They usually "reveal" their kit within 3 rounds.

- no illusions in buff sequence- Necro

- starts by summoning - Conjurer

- loves Cone of Cold/Sunfire - Invoker

- uses Necro spells and has illusions - Enchanter

 

You also have a list of kitted mages in SCS folder. And as I said, if my Invoker gets more damage, I want AI Invokers to have the same ability.

[kreso]

Anyhow, this is what I have done for now (it will take more than a few days to get this fully done).

 

1) Abjurer

- gains Protective Ward aura (+1 to AC, allies in radius, +2AC at level 10, + 3AC at 19)

- gains 10% to *all* resistances at levels 2, 11, and 18

- gainst two innates - Banishment (same as SR, simply removes summons from field) at level 12 and Mage's Disjunction at level 20 - ultra-powerful dispel which destroys *everything* (spell, combat and specific protections, and whatever else is there. Think Beholder Anti-magic ray with an AoE ). It shall not allow a save, but a Spell Shield will stop it.

 

2) Diviner

- gains Diviner's Luck from level 1 (+1 luck, saves, AC)

- innate ability Know oponnent from level 2 (same as KR Ranger, with a pause, usable at will, reduces AC/resistances, single-target)

- innate (name yet undetermined, for now Diviner's Curse, from level 10) which makes enemies suffer -1 to their Luck score, -1 AC, -1 to all saves. AoE ability.

- at level 19, gains (Taaa-daaam, the big cahuna of combat Divination!) Executioner's Eyes ( innate, 1 turn, +4 THAC0, criticals are scored on a roll of 16 an above, affects allies, 1Xday, same as IWD2 spell. Maybe I should swap THAC0 for damage bonus...)

Notice the synergy in between his skills...first reduce the resistance of enemies, smack them with bad luck, cast Executioner eyes, go whack with ultra-damage criticals on whole party!

None of the Diviner's abilites are stopped by MR.

 

 

Would this make these two kits playable now? I should probably add something more to Diviners, since w/o Conjuration and Abjuration they are mostly screwed. I'm thinking a powerful spell like True seeing, but undispellable.

I'm also considering the idea that innates are on a "cooldown" rather than 1x/day (2 or so turns for highest-level innates, 5 for Executioner Eyes since it lasts so long). I hate resting for innates.

I'd use an animation to "tell the player" an innate is usable again.

[Demivrgvs]

@Kreso, if you resist a little bit I'll share with you my plans. I'm almost ready to start packaging thieves (Crevs was so kind to quickly give me the patching code to make True Thief able to use scrolls similarly to how they use wands within IR), and I thought we would have done bards or priests before mages, but I admit handling mages might actually be a bit easier and somewhat more important because of the interconnection with SR (e.g. contingencies/triggers becoming innates).

 

Just a quick note, you are a SpellThief! Executioner's Eyes was supposed to be the new 7th lvl spell for Diviners, not an innate.

[kreso]

Just a quick note, you are a SpellThief! Executioner's Eyes was supposed to be the new 7th lvl spell for Diviners, not an innate.

I really wouldn't give this spell (it's 9th level in IWD2) so freely to allow multiple uses per battle, especially if two schools aren't forbidden from caster - moreover since AI won't use it.

My idea for spell implementation of this was to kill Imp.Haste from the game and make ExEyes a 6th level spell with 5 rounds duration - just so AI uses it as well (imagine kensai/mage Abazigal, Tamah the psionic dragon and their AoE level-drain Drakes with this buff...you'd fear Ascension Abazigal properly now ).

I did search for alternatives, but as much as Diviner is a very cool class in a proper PnP game where their unique abilites can be put to great use, BG2 is so combat-loaded that only battle spells have any real chance of being used.

The only other ideas I have is some kind of protection (a la Refinements Foresight, massive AC+saves bonus but they already have MoP for that so this idea is out) and some massive AoE debuff (Know oponnent + Dispel/kill illusions, with AoE - this would have a cool sideeffect as Diviners would be the only kit who can instantly destroy illusions).

Anyways, I'd rather that IR is done before KR - especially potions (Absorption and Oil of Speed, to name two) and items with Haste effect a la Blackrazor, since with new SR cohesion in between SR/IR is a bit lost (SR Haste spell + Oil of Speed = ).

More importantly; all items which have Pro opcode should use Pro Spell for each spell with changed effects (I.e. Flesh to Stone immunity needs to be both Pro Opcode "petrification" and Pro Spell spwi6xx.spl otherwise they won't protect you from changed spells.)

Likewise, Green Scrolls of Stone to Flesh should use sec type for removals so they can actually revert new "petrification" effect.

[kreso]

I found an exellent spell for Diviners. Unravel Destiny, which will replace Know Oponnent as innate. Implemented as vanilla Doom (all rolls are at -2) + 1d6 damage whenever subject takes damage.

 

[Demivrgvs]

I found an exellent spell for Diviners. Unravel Destiny, which will replace Know Oponnent as innate. Implemented as vanilla Doom (all rolls are at -2) + 1d6 damage whenever subject takes damage.

Ehm...you do took a lot of liberty compared to Pathfinder's version, where btw it isn't even a normal spell. I do thought about using the latter effect for a Bestow Curse spell, but I really don't think it suits the Divination school.