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Unearthed Arcana presents Scales of Balance: a post-hac tweak pack


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Basically, yes. Both Scales and S&A now creates additional pseudo-styles (thrown weapon, archery, call it how you want) with partial overlaps and I didn't brought this up because I want to have Scales's variant for the pseudo-styles overwriting or stacking along with S&A's. All I want from Scales is just the 4 original weapon styles replaced (simply because of shield bash). This works currently, but I'm not sure how to interpret the CSP/WPO merge in regards to this.

Edited by Graion Dilach
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1 hour ago, Graion Dilach said:

but I'm not sure how to interpret the CSP/WPO merge in regards to this.

It's actually more of a divorce, more than a merge. Currently SoB has:

  • Component 121 combines several weapons into larger groups
  • Component 122 changes the proficiency system and, necessarily, installs the #121 group combinations
  • Component 123 combines several weapons into groups in its own way, and changes the proficiency system in its own way, and adds feats to the proficiency setup (so it works just like like Skills & Abilities)
  • Component 124 changes the weapon style proficiencies

(None of my mods touch weapon styles except SoB #124; it is compatible with every mod out there except, I think obviously, 1) mods that also overwrite weapons styles (e.g. S&A changed weapons styles) and 2) mods that remove weapon styles from the game altogether, e.g. the two CDTweaks components that remove weapon styles.)

The new, prospective version of CSP a.k.a. component #123 that I am working on now, will be more modular:

  • It will change weapon group combinations in a reactive way - if the CDtweaks BG1 or IWD groupings are already installed, then it will continue to use those groups; if they are not installed, then it will install component 121 and use the existing SoB weapon groupings.
  • Likewise, the new version of CSP will not change the proficiency system; it will work with the vanilla system, or the CDTweaks systems, or the SoB #122 system, whichever is installed. (The only changes it will make is to overwrite PROFS.2da and PROFSMAX.2da, to give all classes a lot more points to spend on combat skills, and maybe slow down advancement a bit to induce players to spread their points to a broader variety of skills.)
  • Finally, CSP will continue to not touch weapon styles, so you can use SoB #124 or not, or you can use S&A styles or any other standalone weapon styles mod.

Now, as I write this it occurs to me that there is a question of whether the long-extant SoB component #122 should also defer to the CDTweaks BG1/IWD proficiency systems if they are installed... maybe? Not sure.

Edited by subtledoctor
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So, one major difference between the current version of CSP and the prospective version is that, since the current version entirely sets up its own proficiency system, it can change and control the way you gain APR. A complaint I got for the WPO system was that since APR comes entirely from your level of specialization with a particular weapon, high-level warriors are more limited when using weapons they are not specialized in. (They would only get 3/2 APR instead of 2 APR with the vanilla system.) My complaint with the vanilla system is that non-warrior classes can never improve their APR except by dual-wielding, and that is an extremely narrow way of interacting with APR. Particularly frustrating to me is the idea that a quick, slender Swashbuckler keeps the same slow 1 APR, but somehow hits like a Mac truck when striking. Its just weird, I would like there to be an avenue toward high-APR/low-damage characters.

The current CSP system puts almost all APR improvement into a proficiency, and controls it very simply by limiting which classes/kits can advance to which degree in that proficiency. But we can no longer do that.

So, maybe I will add a new fighting posture to the Postures proficiency: Reckless Attack. Off the top of my head, when in use, this posture would grant a +0.5 bonus to APR, but apply a... -3? ...penalty to attack rolls. So this is something warriors with very good thac0 might use to strike more quickly, or Swashbucklers who also have enough thac0 to spare a non-trivial penalty. And of course being a posture, you can only use one - so when using Reckless Attack for more offensive punch, you would not be able to use the Leadership posture for party-wide passive bonuses, or the Parrying postures to protect yourself, or the Spell Evasion posture to attack mages. Etc.

Sound reasonable?

Also being worked on: the Dodge skill should not apply when using a shield. Unfortunately, this is a bit more complicated to implement than it sounds... :( I don't want to resort to using a repeating effect, but I might have to.

Also under consideration: do the Parrying postures make much sense? Currently the way it works is, you can learn defense against certain kinds of attacks. So you can parry one slashing attack per round, or one piercing attack per round, or one blunt attack per round, or one missile attack per round. You can switch among these at will, and have very adaptable defensive capabilities... if you are willing to sink four points into parrying.

But is it worth re-thinking those? I'm wondering if parrying should be something you particularly do with a shield. Right now specialization in shield-fighting gives a bit insane AC bonuses - like, -5 for certain highly magical shield, plus another -2 for style specialization. Just going to crazy AC levels with shield specialization is kind of boring, and also pushes your AC to levels not really contemplated by the game design. What if shield specialization gave you the ability to parry an attack each round - of any damage type - while not changing your AC? Maybe in place of shield bash... maybe shield bashing could become a more generic "Counterpunch" ability that lives under postures. So you could do an extra bashing attack even if you don't have a shield (if you use this posture, again, making it exclusive from Reckless Attack, Leadership, etc.)

In this event, maybe the (shield-independent) bashing skill could be combined with the "Dirty Fighting" posture and work like the Grappling posture. So instead of passive grappling and several random active on-hit dirty fighting effects, would could have several passive shield-bash-style postures:

  • Bash/pushback
  • Grapple
  • Trip
  • Throw sand/blind
  • Weaken/hit pressure point

Of course making parrying shield-exclusive would leave us with no defensive posture, apart from the more general Dodge skill... that's not great. I could resurrect the "Swashbuckling" / "Defensive Spin" posture...?

Lots to consider.

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The posture system reminds me of stances from 3.5's Tome of Battle and Pathfinder's Path of War.  Each character can normally be affected by 1 at a time.

And what you proposed as a posture (Reckless Assault) is kinda like the 3.5 Barbarian alternate class feature that changes Rage to +1 attack per round on a full attack but -2 accuracy with non-STR scaling weapons.

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5 hours ago, Endarire said:

The posture system reminds me of stances from 3.5's Tome of Battle and Pathfinder's Path of War.  Each character can normally be affected by 1 at a time.

I’ve never read those, but evidently great minds think alike :laugh2:

I keep turning this over in my head and I have decision paralysis. I suppose it’s pretty arbitrary. I guess it would be good to keep shield bashing with spec in shields. It’s a nice alternative to the +1 APR of dual-wielding and +.5 APR of SWS. But there’s the question of what to do with one pip in shields. Vanilla’s bonus to missile AC is boring. Maybe follow IR’s example: apply thac0 penalties to medium/large shields, and remove/reduce that penalty if proficient in shield-fighting. 

The parrying thing… maybe instead of a different parrying skill for each damage type, blocking 1 attack each round, it could block all weapon types but only have a 50% chance of working each round. 

And like I say, instead of one “dirty fighting” with a random chance to trip or blind or weaken on hit, maybe have three separate skills and apply each one passively. Or maybe keep it a single skill, but apply it passively instead of on-hit. 

Hmmm…

I suppose there could also be an anti-caster skill? Distraction, or something? On-hit is underwhelming because effective casters can’t be hit. But maybe something similarly applied passively, like you swat their ears and have a chance to cause a short-duration spell failure chance? (Would probably implement it with the deafness opcode, as it works more reliably than opcode 60.)

And… ooh, I might have just thought of a way for Wizard Slayers’ on-hit effects to bypass PfMW… quick, to the Bat-cave!

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Tome of Battle allows certain high level warriors to be in 2 or 3 stances at a time which is why I said 'normally,' and BG2EE covers the epic levels where similarly-leveled 3.5 characters could get this benefit.  I'm unsure what would be involved in coding such a system for your mods.

Thankee.

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On 1/24/2023 at 4:39 PM, Endarire said:

Tome of Battle allows certain high level warriors to be in 2 or 3 stances at a time …  I'm unsure what would be involved in coding such a system for your mods.

Ah. I think implementing that would be a moderately insane endeavour. Not likely to happen. 

EDIT -

Okay, I have the new fighting postures set up, and have it such that you won't waste any points on dialogue skills when you dual-class.

EDIT 2 - oops, no I didn't. Gah, this is nuts. I hate dual-classing so much, I wish I could go back in time and tear it out of this game system...

Edited by subtledoctor
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Update to version 6 alpha 4. This seems to be in pretty good shape now! Changes:

  • The CSP (Combat Skill Points) system no longer bundles its own custom proficiency system. Now you can use Combat skills with the base game's proficiency system, or the BG1 or IWD systems from CDTweaks, or with the Scales of Balance WPO system. If you don't use the BG1 or IWD systems, the CSP will apply a few small weapon category combinations: long+bastard swords, clubs+maces, spears+halberds, daggers+darts, and long+short bows. (These combinations are identical to the one used by the SoB WPO proficiency system.)
  • In the CSP, APR is no longer its own proficiency, but instead follows the rules of whatever proficiency system you are using (see above). It is replaced by a "melee Training" proficiency which gives melee thac0 bonuses for all weapons.
  • The "Dodge" feat granting AC bonuses is temporarily canceled out when you equip a shield.
  • The three "Parrying" postures have been combined into a single posture, which has a 50% chance to parry once per round. A new posture, "Reckless Attack," has been added which gives +.5 APR with a -3 attack roll penalty.
  • Now, if you spend a few pips in proficiencies that let you learn feats, and then dual-class, those pips carry over to your second class. This way you can spend pips in your second class and learn more feats, without any overlap.
  • A NEW component is added: an alternative to the MRO component that attempts (and often fails!) to remove sources of magic resistance from the game. This alternative version does not remove MR, but instead tones it down: creatures' inherent MR is cut in half, items that apply MR as an equipping effect apply a reduced amount (50%->30%, going to 25%->15%... any effects of 20% or less are unchanged), and all sources of MR as an equipping effect now SET MR instead of increasing it, so you cannot stack it as much. (You can still increase it with temporary sources like spells and potions, though.)

Tagging @Etamin or anyone else who speaks Polish: this might be a good time to update the Polish setup.tra file. I have added all the new strings in English, so that it will at least install, and in the .tra file I have separated out the sections that need translating like so:

@172 = ~Dla Rozbudowanej Listy Zaklec~
@200 = ~SBO - Rewizja premii do statystyk~
//
//
//
//
@201 = ~SBO - Stat-based Bonus Spells~
@2011  = ~SBO - Stat-based Bonus Spells for 5E Casters~
@2012  = ~SBO - bonuses for memorization slots AND casting slots~
@2013  = ~SBO - bonuses only for casting slots~
//
//
//
//
@202 = ~SBO - Pelna Sila tylko dla broni oburecznych~
@204 = ~SBO - Wlacz Rzut na Koncentracje~ 

So the sections needing translation should be easy to find, they are all between those quadruple sets of double-slashes. Fair warning, the section for the CSP component is several hundred lines long - it needs text for all the feats as well as class/kit description updates.

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1 hour ago, Endarire said:

Does this mean that the Skills & Abilities proficiency system works well with your new proficiency system?

No - Skills & Abilities adds feats, just like this mod adds feats, and Might & Guile adds feats. Choose which one you like of the three. 

Likewise, CDTweaks adds two variant proficiency systems, and this mod adds one, and Skills & Abilities adds one. Choose which one you like of the four. 

The hitch is, if you want Skills & Abilities for either one of those choices, then you must use it for both choices. Because the S&A feats are intertwined with the custom S&A proficiency system. 

Edited by subtledoctor
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4 hours ago, GawainBS said:

What's the difference between these feats and your M&G ones?

1. These use proficiency pips as the currency to spend on feats, rather that a different, parallel system of allowances. 

2. These use the proficiency screen and/or dialogues to choose feats, rather than the somewhat unwieldy sequencer selection UI. (This will especially work better in IWDEE.)

3. The number and organization of feats is slightly different, to work with the new system for getting them; and inevitably with such a reshuffle, the function of a few feats has changed as well. 

4. This having been worked on more recently, is likely a bit more refined and higher quality. 

Ultimately they are not designed to be coequal offerings; this is intended to fully replace the MnG feats component. Early builds were in MnG… only, because it uses proficiencies, it changes the install order requirements (this should be installed post-SCS) so I moved it to a different mod. In the long run I want the MnG feats component to disappear. 

Edited by subtledoctor
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2 hours ago, Endarire said:

What would be involved in making your proficiency overhaul at least mostly compatible with Skills and Abilities?

Convince Beamdog to write a new version of the game engine, with more proficiency stats? Both mods do the same thing man, just decide which one you like better.

Ah sorry you just mean the old Scales of Balance "WPO" proficiency system? (4 pips in each weapon, with APR bonuses for each pip and no level-based APR increase?) Not the new Combat Skills component?

Honestly, I don't know. The WPO system installs the SoB weapon categories, which frees up several stats; but the S&A system uses a much more aggressive set of weapon combinations, almost as compact as the old BG1 system, and it uses a lot of stats for its feats - more than are freed up by the WPO categories.

At the end of the day, it seems like the S&A feats are only going to be compatible with its own proficiency system. It would take a TON of work to make it compatible with other proficiency systems, and unless I'm missing something that work would have to be on the S&A side of things.

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