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Unearthed Arcana presents Scales of Balance: a post-hac tweak pack


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Just now, morpheus562 said:

I view our systems as a choose the one of your liking type thing. I'm not sure how many profs I have available, if any, off the top of my head. If I haven't used up all the free space by now, I am sure I will in the future.

I think he was talking about the simpler part of the SoB proficiency system, which changes the particular values of each proficiency. Very theoretically, there is no reason your system couldn't work with a mod that changes what happens when you get 2 pips or 3 pips in a weapon. As long as that mod didn't interfere with your non-weapon-dependent proficiencies.

Practically speaking, though, it's still not feasible. The SoB WPO could be coded to work with the particular stats used solely for weapons by S&A; however, it also does things like give more proficiencies at level 1, and change the max number you can have at certain levels in PROFSMAX.2da, and shift weapons from a 5-pip system to a 4-pip system (since in the base game the 4th pip is basically a meaningless speed bump for fighters). All of these things would interfere with the S&A skills, since they give you feats in a linear progression and they assume you can spend 5 pips in each skill.

It would be a lot of work and time to get the mods to a state where they still wouldn't work well together. I just don't see much value in trying to force it.

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I read the previous 3 posts, but I'm still clarifying here my previous point:  I like the new proficiencies from Skills & Abilities (Spellcraft, etc.) and the Expanded Combat System (component 123) from Scales of Balance.  I thought these could be used together, but if not, what would be involved in making them work well together?

Thankee!

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2 hours ago, Endarire said:

I like the new proficiencies from Skills & Abilities (Spellcraft, etc.) and the Expanded Combat System (component 123) from Scales of Balance

Oh, definitely not. I mean, why? They are two versions of the same thing. This is like saying you like a mod that turns Minsc into a hill giant with 21 STR, and a mod that turns Minsc into a miniature giant space ranger with 5 STR. They both change the same thing, in different ways. You just need to pick with one you prefer.

2 hours ago, Endarire said:

what would be involved in making them work well together?

It's not possible. You could try using the old Might & Guile feats with S&A, that's at least technically feasible.

Edited by subtledoctor
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You know, I read people complain about how powerful magic is - or in a different context, how powerful psionics can be, and I always think there is a massive assumption that magic and/or psionics must be super powerful because their effects must be absolute, and impossible to counter. But they don't have to be that way! My preferred version of psionics is just an extension of normal, non-magical willpower, and it should be possible to resist or overcome it will normal, non-magical willpower. Likewise, magic is special for being able to do things that non-magical efforts cannot (spontaneous combustion in a fireball, etc.) but magic doing unique things doesn't mean magic has to do more powerful things. Why not give non-magical people the ability to resist and overcome magic? There are different ways I can think to do this:

  • magic with extended duration, like Hold Person, could offer a save each round to escape it instead of just a single save when the spell is cast
  • various spell durations could be shorter
  • non-magical people like warriors and rogues could learn to oppose magical effect through willpower, I suppose by improving their saves
  • ...?

The third one, at least, could be implemented in this Combat Skills mod. We already have some of it, with IWD-style Evasion abilities versus evocations, poisons, stun/hold effects, and charm effects. Maybe there could be more: as one of the groups of learnable feats you should be able to get a permanent saving throw bonus... maybe against certain spell schools? To represent studying to resist Enchantments, say, or Necromantic effects, etc.

While it's knocking around in my head, does anyone have any interesting ideas or thoughts about ways non-magical folks could learn to counter magic?

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4 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

You know, I read people complain about how powerful magic is - or in a different context, how powerful psionics can be, and I always think there is a massive assumption that magic and/or psionics must be super powerful because their effects must be absolute, and impossible to counter. But they don't have to be that way! My preferred version of psionics is just an extension of normal, non-magical willpower, and it should be possible to resist or overcome it will normal, non-magical willpower. Likewise, magic is special for being able to do things that non-magical efforts cannot (spontaneous combustion in a fireball, etc.) but magic doing unique things doesn't mean magic has to do more powerful things. Why not give non-magical people the ability to resist and overcome magic? There are different ways I can think to do this:

  • magic with extended duration, like Hold Person, could offer a save each round to escape it instead of just a single save when the spell is cast
  • various spell durations could be shorter
  • non-magical people like warriors and rogues could learn to oppose magical effect through willpower, I suppose by improving their saves
  • ...?

The third one, at least, could be implemented in this Combat Skills mod. We already have some of it, with IWD-style Evasion abilities versus evocations, poisons, stun/hold effects, and charm effects. Maybe there could be more: as one of the groups of learnable feats you should be able to get a permanent saving throw bonus... maybe against certain spell schools? To represent studying to resist Enchantments, say, or Necromantic effects, etc.

While it's knocking around in my head, does anyone have any interesting ideas or thoughts about ways non-magical folks could learn to counter magic?

I think Imprisonment needs a save. I'll even take a save vs. spell at -6. Right now it is an insta-kill with very very few options (all limited) for a regular warrior to counter this.

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From my experience, I was apparently self-limiting because I was only using a small number of generally reliable magic options like magic missile or skull trap.  Only this month, after over 20 years of occasionally playing BG, do I ever recall even once casting sleep in-game.  It was wonderful - when it worked!

As for how to have mundanes counter casters, consider the Mage Slayer feat like from 3.5, like Pierce Magical Protection or Pierce Magical Concealment.

As it stands, spells are situationally better because they can affect areas and do things besides damage.  Mundanes can still deal a lot of (mostly single target) damage quickly, but are more likely to be stopped by needing weapons with a minimum + to hurt foes.

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:laugh::laugh::laugh:  "Your contempt for magic is so fierce that you can cast Dispel Magic." Sorry. I can't help making fun, I really hate 3E...

At any rate, before I upload a new version, here's a question: should the Use Magical Device feat be split up into 1) Use Magic Scrolls and 2) Use Magic Wands? So you have to choose, and to use both you would need to spend two proficiency points?

Or is one pip for both scrolls and wands reasonable?

Edited by subtledoctor
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Okay, I've uploaded version 6.5 alpha 3 with the new version of Use Magical Device, which is shared with Refinements v4.36 and Might & Guile v5.2a4 and Faiths & Powers v0.85sd18. I've broken the UMD code out into a portable .tpa file and give it an internal version number to mark progress as I worked out the kinks; anyone who is interested should feel free to use it, and improve it if they have ideas/opinions.

Right now UMD for both scrolls and wands is combined into a single feat; I may revise that in the future, it is quite easy with the new UMD function. I might make sense to have 'Use Scrolls' and 'Use Wands' be distinct feats that you can choose at low levels, and then the combined 'Use Magical Devices' as an HLA (if you install Refinements). Maybe?

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Don't know if it'sup to date, but the top post says

Quote

Btw, part of the reason for breaking things up this way has to do with load order. Might 'n' Guile as usual should be installed after other kits but before SCS. This new version of Scales of Balance should be installed very very late: especially if you use the MRO, that should be installed after all mods that add creatures and items. So after SCS, and after aTweaks.

EDIT: looking at the readme:

Quote

Load Order:
Scales of Balance should be installed after all other mods that add or change creatures, items, spells, and kits. It should be installed after most tweak mods, like Tweaks Anthology. Most of this mod should slot in nicely immediately before or immediately after SCS... *except* the MRO: if you install aTweaks PnP fiends, the MRO component should be installed after that. (That's why I moved the MRO to the end as of v5.3.) Alternatively, if you want really hard aTweaks fiends, you can install aTweaks after the MRO, and they will be the only creatures in the game that have magic resistance.

 

Edited by mickabouille
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