Koveras' Ring

[F-man]

 

 

 

I also think that the luck bonus is very suitable: Useful for all classes (as a gift from Gorion should be)

But it's not a gift from Gorion. That's a lie...

 

I think what the other guys are trying to point out is that the ring is not a gift from Gorion, but it has to look like one. If a simple identification (via lore or 1st lvl spell) quickly reveals it as a Shadow Thief ring the facade would fall too easily I guess.

 

 

Sure. I get that of course. The problem is that the ring must be a distinctive ring for a Shadow Thief Assassin. There is no way out of this.

 

Isn't it pretty clear that the ring is not solely recognized by its enchantment but also by its appearance. A ring of luck with some unique symbols written on it should be more than enough to make it distinct.

[Salk]

Isn't it pretty clear that the ring is not solely recognized by its enchantment but also by its appearance. A ring of luck with some unique symbols written on it should be more than enough to make it distinct.

 

The ring must have qualities the suit an assassin's purpose. Luck is a very generic one that doesn't seem so appropriate (even if it was my own original idea).

[F-man]

 

Isn't it pretty clear that the ring is not solely recognized by its enchantment but also by its appearance. A ring of luck with some unique symbols written on it should be more than enough to make it distinct.

 

The ring must have qualities the suit an assassin's purpose. Luck is a very generic one that doesn't seem so appropriate (even if it was my own original idea).

 

OK, for this one I really have to ask: Why it must have to those qualities? I really have no idea where you got that idea.

[Salk]

 

 

Isn't it pretty clear that the ring is not solely recognized by its enchantment but also by its appearance. A ring of luck with some unique symbols written on it should be more than enough to make it distinct.

 

The ring must have qualities the suit an assassin's purpose. Luck is a very generic one that doesn't seem so appropriate (even if it was my own original idea).

 

OK, for this one I really have to ask: Why it must have to those qualities? I really have no idea where you got that idea.

 

 

Ulraunt says this if the ring is in your possession:

 

Why have I accused you? You were seen fleeing the murder scene. Koveras found the identifying ring of a Shadow Thief assassin in your personal effects, and gold minted in Amn. I feel that it is strong enough proof to accuse you.

[F-man]

 

 

 

Isn't it pretty clear that the ring is not solely recognized by its enchantment but also by its appearance. A ring of luck with some unique symbols written on it should be more than enough to make it distinct.

 

The ring must have qualities the suit an assassin's purpose. Luck is a very generic one that doesn't seem so appropriate (even if it was my own original idea).

 

OK, for this one I really have to ask: Why it must have to those qualities? I really have no idea where you got that idea.

 

 

Ulraunt says this if the ring is in your possession:

 

Why have I accused you? You were seen fleeing the murder scene. Koveras found the identifying ring of a Shadow Thief assassin in your personal effects, and gold minted in Amn. I feel that it is strong enough proof to accuse you.

 

So, why this particular shadow thief assassin couldn't be known to wear a ring of luck? Because this ring is something this particular assassin wears and not every single shadow thief assassin that exist, right?

[Salk]

So, why this particular shadow thief assassin couldn't be known to wear a ring of luck? Because this ring is something this particular assassin wears and not every single shadow thief assassin that exist, right?

 

No offense intended but you are not making any sense to me.

 

The ring found in your possession does not identify CHARNAME as a specific assassin wearing a specific ring. It identifies CHARNAME as being a Shadow Thief assassin, one of the many. Therefore the ring must have distinctive qualities that are appropriate for assassination. Luck is a very generic bonus that does not really suit the context. A backstab multiplier does. A Trust Strike ability does as well.

 

If people are bent on having the Luck bonus, it can still be introduced in stead of the backstab multiplier but I find it way less reasonable (again, it was my very first idea and I liked it - better for another item though).

[F-man]

 

So, why this particular shadow thief assassin couldn't be known to wear a ring of luck? Because this ring is something this particular assassin wears and not every single shadow thief assassin that exist, right?

 

No offense intended but you are not making any sense to me.

 

The ring found in your possession does not identify CHARNAME as a specific assassin wearing a specific ring. It identifies CHARNAME as being a Shadow Thief assassin, one of the many. Therefore the ring must have distinctive qualities that are appropriate for assassination. Luck is a very generic bonus that does not really suit the context. A backstab multiplier does. A Trust Strike ability does as well.

 

If people are bent on having the Luck bonus, it can still be introduced in stead of the backstab multiplier but I find it way less reasonable (again, it was my very first idea and I liked it - better for another item though).

 

Actually, this is the point where think differently, you think that that ring is something that every shadow thief assassin wears, which is something I think is pretty stupid, why would all shadow thief assassins wear same rings that can be used to identify them by everyone. On the other hand, I think that this ring is something that this particular assassin that did this particular murder is seen wearing, it is know that he/she is shadow thief and wears that ring.

 

EDIT: Actually, forget it. I have seen few lengthened discussions between you and some other people and you never changed your mind. So, this is probably pointless because I'm also not gonna change my opinion and there does not seem to be any reason discuss this anyway.

[Salk]

Actually, this is the point where think differently, you think that that ring is something that every shadow thief assassin wears, which is something I think is pretty stupid, why would all shadow thief assassins wear same rings that can be used to identify them by everyone. On the other hand, I think that this ring is something that this particular assassin that did this particular murder is seen wearing, it is know that he/she is shadow thief and wears that ring.

 

You don't get it, F-Man.

 

I don't say this is a ring that every Shadow Thief assassin wears. I say this is a ring that identifies the wearer to be member of the Guild. Inside there is a symbol (a figure 8 in the lore I created, the Mask, symbol of the Guild). This is a genuine ring forged as item for assassins to take advantage of once on a murdering mission. You want the Luck bonus because it's "cool and rare". I am more concerned to make the item fit the description and the background. The item's lore (unless we take CrevsDaak's advice) will reveal (directly or indirectly, I was trying for the latter) that the ring is a Shadow Thieves Guild item, crafted for assassinating purposes.

 

I like the Luck bonus better myself (again, it was me who came with the idea, did you notice or not?) but roleplaying comes first in my book. I already created the item I proposed and it's already in my game, I am not trying to convince anyone. In the end it'll be Demi's decision and I am good with it.

[Jarno Mikkola]

On the other hand, I think that this ring is something that this particular assassin that did this particular murder is seen wearing, it is know that he/she is shadow thief and wears that ring.

Erhm, what ?

To me, the ring Koveras gives to the player is a valuable ring, thus the player keeps it, now the reason why the Koveras identifies the player with the ring is by claiming that he saw the murderer wearing a ring of this exact sort, not by knowing what it does but by knowing what it looks like... so say if it has a special motif on the surface, it would give a strong evidence agains you when he goes to say: "I didn't see much of the man that murdered Renald, but I saw him wearing a ring that had this and that motif on it."

 

@Salk, the rings identifying feature, like a motif is unlikely to have a connection to the Shadow Thieves, as if I were them, I would at least murder any one that's able to identify an assassin of theirs... hint hint. That includes every one of the Diviners in the land, if need be. :insane smiley: "Until the knowledge of us is lost, we can do nothing, as not even the shadows will protect us." -unknown Shadow Thief Assassin.

 

Now, the fact that the ring is magical only carries weight in that it needs to be worth the trouble to keep it. So it can't be a golden ring, as those are barely worth selling, when you can keep twenty plus +1 arrows with you instead.

[F-man]

 

Actually, this is the point where think differently, you think that that ring is something that every shadow thief assassin wears, which is something I think is pretty stupid, why would all shadow thief assassins wear same rings that can be used to identify them by everyone. On the other hand, I think that this ring is something that this particular assassin that did this particular murder is seen wearing, it is know that he/she is shadow thief and wears that ring.

 

You don't get it, F-Man.

 

I don't say this is a ring that every Shadow Thief assassin wears. I say this is a ring that identifies the wearer to be member of the Guild. Inside there is a symbol (a figure 8 in the lore I created, the Mask, symbol of the Guild). This is a genuine ring forged as item for assassins to take advantage of once on a murdering mission. You want the Luck bonus because it's "cool and rare". I am more concerned to make the item fit the description and the background. The item's lore (unless we take Creek's advice) will reveal (directly or indirectly, I was trying for the latter) that the ring is a Shadow Thieves Guild item, crafted for assassinating purposes.

 

I like the Luck bonus better myself (again, it was me who came with the idea, did you notice or not?) but roleplaying comes first in my book. I already created the item I proposed and it's already in my game, I am not trying to convince anyone. In the end it'll be Demi's decision and I am good with it.

 

Just for record, I like luck bonus but I am not dead bent on having it. If Shadow Thief assassins actually really have some specific rings they use, then that ring is what it should be. I still find it quite strange that none of the CHARNAME's party members do not immediately deny that Gorion wouldn't really send Shadow Thief assassin ring to his ward, though, party NPCs are quite quiet without mods in BG.

 

@Jarno, that is about what I was thinking, I probably expressed it really badly.

[Salk]

I still find it quite strange that none of the CHARNAME's party members do not immediately deny that Gorion wouldn't really send Shadow Thief assassin ring to his ward, though, party NPCs are quite quiet without mods in BG.

 

That's indeed the only reason to have a ring not affiliated with the Shadow Thieves: Gorion would hardly leave that inheritance. It's not the other party members that should think that odd (only Imoen, Jaheira and Khalid know Gorion well enough - they might not even be in the party), but CHARNAME himself.

 

At first, I thought of a magical ring that could be used by anyone but then when I read about the ring being identified as crafted by the Shadow Thieves Guild and used for assassinations I had to go back and rethink it carefully because that ring is proof that the bearer belong to the Shadow Thief and is an assassin. Having a generic ring would make Koveras' lie more credible but would go openly against the word of Ulraunt.

[Salk]

@Salk, the rings identifying feature, like a motif is unlikely to have a connection to the Shadow Thieves, as if I were them, I would at least murder any one that's able to identify an assassin of theirs... hint hint.

 

Instead it's just what happens in the game. Koveras uses that ring to accuse you to be an assassin belonging to the Shadow Thieves Guild and Ulraunt buys his accusation saying that the ring is indeed an item used exclusively by members of the Shadow Thieves Guild.

 

There must be something recognizable and distinctive in the ring to make it unmistakably such: the craft (the Shadow Thief does have for symbol the Mask and the Dagger) and the properties.

[Dakk]

@Salk: you've stated repeatedly that you feel that the associated bonus must be suitable for an assassin, correct? But surely Luck is very suitable - not the least for assassins - as it gives +5 in all (possibly not DI) thieving skills! I really think it's a perfect fit.

 

Also I love the irony as pointed out by n-ghost

[Salk]

Dakk,

 

Luck is indeed useful to assassins. But also to fighters, mages, clerics, druids and everyone else. It also feels (to me at least) opposite to specific tasks like assassination is. Luck is, in my opinion, too generic to fit the lore and the background of a ring that identifies the wearer as member of the Shadow Thieves.

 

But if you all guys like it so much who am I to say no?

[Dakk]

Luck is indeed useful to assassins. But also to fighters, mages, clerics, druids and everyone else.

Yes you are correct of course. I just meant that everyone gets +1 AC, THAC0 and Save.

 

But apart from that Assassins also get +5 in Pick Pocket, Open Locks, Find Traps, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Set Traps and Detect Illusion (not sure about those last two, anyone want to check?). So it's comparatively worth quite a lot more to them As Assassins only get +15 % per level, a +1 Luck equals ~2 levels worth of skills!