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Koveras' Ring


Salk

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If saves stacking be the problem, it should be unusable by dwarves, halflings, paladins and gnomes.

Why not make it as simple as it can get?

+1 AC, +1 saves, but can be worn with other magical rings/cloaks/whatever. Fits the theme, doesn't stray too much from vanilla, and an extra bit of lore can help make it more unique. I'd still not use it over Free Action or similar, but it would have it's uses, and people would keep it.

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Making you almost invulnerable at early levels to all their save vs spells. Making the item almost vanilla balance ... NOT FREAKING +1 level one to whoever uses it. It was not meant for that in the first place.

This reinforces my argument that Spell Revisions should make *every* spell that gives a save have some lesser effect even when targets successfully save. They shouldn't get a completely free pass; no spell should be completely wasted.

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If saves stacking be the problem, it should be unusable by dwarves, halflings, paladins and gnomes.

Actually you are WRONG, because the races save throw bonuses are limited in scope aka in types, it's not +2 to every one of the saves.

 

This reinforces my argument that Spell Revisions should make *every* spell that gives a save have some lesser effect even when targets successfully save. They shouldn't get a completely free pass; no spell should be completely wasted.

K, so give a good alternative effect for each: Silence ? Charm ? Blindness ? Sleep ? Deafness ? Stinking Cloud? Web ? Horror ? -that's the first 2 levels of mage spells, I could continue.

Remember, they need to be the kind that the AI can still not be completely decimated up on contact...

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If saves stacking be the problem, it should be unusable by dwarves, halflings, paladins and gnomes.

Actually you are WRONG, because the races save throw bonuses are limited in scope aka in types, it's not +2 to every one of the saves.

No, overall you'd still get better use of it for shorties, since 15>10. Nvm that spells&death are the most important ones, which both dwarves and halfs get.

Another point is that saves are poor in BG1 anyway and having +2 won't help much in any case scenario. Chance to fail a save drops from 50 to 40%.

Ya, imba ring if put on paladins.

 

More importantly, the idea of this particular ring being unsuable by Charname, whichever class he may be, is actually pretty odd, considering who and why gives it to you. Dialogue for paladins should be rewritten slightly, along these lines:

 

Koveras: "Here's a gift for you,my good man. (mumbling to himself: this will prove he's a murderer. Muahahahahhahaha....he can never guess that Koveras is Sarevok...muahahahaha...)."

Goodygoody (Inquisitor): "Why thank you Sarevok....umm..Koveras! (blushes under Balduran's Helm. He's played the game before Item Revisions v4 came out of beta)

Be that my father will, I shall wear it with pride! And honour! Never shalt I falter! Evil, meet my ring! Ring, meet my pinky finger! "

Minsc: "(Finally! He speaks the language of Minsc! That blow in the head from an Ogre really got Goodygoody! We should get him a miniature space monkey! Or a hummingbird? Minsc loves hummingbirds!) A classic dilema! Well, not so much dilemma but still....How could anyone deciline such a lovely gift!? Right Boo? Booooo!? Wake up Boo!"

Boo: "Squeeeeeeeeeek! (what's going on here?...mead...lot of mead yesterday...oh look! A shiny ring! Or is it a nut? Nut?.. Nuts? Nutty?...so blurry...) (goes back to sleep)."

Sarevok:"Ah right...uuups. Ehm... Sorry bro. You're a paladin, so you can't use it. Hmm....sorry for the inconvenience...ehm. Heh heh...

Goodygoody:..................... Gift for ME I can't actually use? From my OWN FATHER, who knows me better than I know myself? WTF?

(4th, 5th, and all other walls collapse irrevocably upon Minsc and Boo. Imoen leaves the party forever to become a Sun Soul Monk. Jaheira overdoses on Red potions and dissapears; rumors say she now plays excusively Enhanced Editions.

Gorion rises as a ju-ju zombie and starts working as a DJ in Feldepost's inn. Specator Beholder stops spectating.

BG2 never gets produced. History ceases to exist.)

Few moments later:

Sarevok: "Riiighht...heh....look pal. I'm gonna leave now, you know, place to be, people to kill, uuuups..see, wars to start...heh heh.

Oh, I almost forgot, you might want to kill Iron Throne leaders now. (This is getting emberassing...damn.) Really, I know you're an honour-bound paladin and all, but still..heh... you know, for consistency sake, so the next few dialogues you're bound to have don't seem THAT stupid."

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You forget that usually you need to identify items before you use them ... unless you are willingly want to go to the grave with the -150% casting penalty and Dex at 3.

More likely:

Koveras: Ah, I thought I might find you somewhere around here. Allow me to introduce myself...

Char Name: Please do...

K: You are looking for the truth, as are we all... My name is Koveras. I used to work for your father, running messages to his Harper friends in Waterdeep. Before he passed on, he entrusted this ring to me and asked that I give it to you should evil ever befall him... Will you take it?

CN1: Well, evil befell him, all right, but I want nothing of your baubles. -you do not have to take the ring after a few more responses-

CN2: And what evil befell him, Koveras? -forgot what this does-

CN3: If it was my father's wish, then I shall wear it. Thank you for your kindness to him, Koveras.

Sarevok to CN3 response: Wear it with your father's pride about you, then. Before you go, listen to me well. The leaders of the Iron Throne are here in the keep even as we speak. They are at their weakest and most unprotected... if you ever hope to kill them, now is the time. Now go, the Iron Throne awaits you.

-you get the ring, but Reiltar is set to be dead, and as he happens to be behind you, Sarevok is the one that can really have done it, unless you go do it yourself before he get there(by going down instead of up, and while you bounder this, Koveras just exists, as the dialog has ended already )- .

Now then, you go to the inventory, look at the ring and say -"Hmm, I feel like this ring has an evil aura around it, I cannot use it in the service of my god."- and there you go, you have not needed to identify it yet. But you sure should be curious ... as you were given the white teeth horse, but weren't it's originals hair color a bit different than what you now see it has... PS, that's the original dialog, at least in BG1EE.

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K, so give a good alternative effect for each: Silence ? Charm ? Blindness ? Sleep ? Deafness ? Stinking Cloud? Web ? Horror ? -that's the first 2 levels of mage spells, I could continue.

Well, those are all little 1st- and 2nd-level spells - very weak magic which *could* reasonably be wasted on a successful save. (Most of those are AoE spells, too, where the chance of *everybody* saving is low. )

 

But still, use your imagination! How about, Charm has a 1-second Stun effect on a successful save, as you fight the magic. And Dire Charm could have a 2-3 second stun, and Domination a 4-6 second stun. Horror could cause 6 seconds of a -2 penalty to damage rolls to represent the strain of overcoming the magical fear.

 

It's really not hard to come up with little effects that are roughly 10-20% as powerful as the spell on a failed save (look to Finger of Death as guidance). But for there to be *zero* effect for 6th-level magic like Disintegrate, or 9th-level magic like PW Kill, is imho bad game design.

 

(Sorry to get into SR stuff in an IR thread, but it's relevant to the topic of items with save bonuses, and snyway this thread seems about tapped out. kreso already won the internet and if Demi can't come up with a solution for the ring conundrum after all this then IR is in serious trouble...)

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But still, use your imagination! How about...

I am, and I imagine myself stunning the liches with my Power Word: Stun spells while they try to stop the time, and thus they get slaughtered under my barrage of arranged attacks right after they wake up... to a rude awakening, which wasn't supposed to be THIS rude.

The reason it doesn't usually work is that the highly powered AI controlled monsters usually are immune to such effects, as they would make them too vulnerable and remembering that a single damage point or interruption of the casting action will remove it's effects completely, do it enough to casters and you'll never have magic in the world anymore, cause the casters all ended up dead.

 

The direct or indirect damage spells and save vs. spell effects are kind of opposite styles of doing what's requested. One relies to disabling and then overpowering single targets, while the other just relies on the brute force, or at least removing a portion of the damage required to kill the target(s).

(Sorry to get into ...

-yep, I laid that trap, so I am just gathering my goods. That's not to say that with tweaking your idea couldn't be properly placed... but you have to work on it a bit more, and yeah, I am ... well kinda trying to help you with it, kinda. As the opposing side. Get it ?

 

 

Let's see what Demi says...

Looking forward to it too.
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remembering that a single damage point or interruption of the casting action will remove it's effects completely, do it enough to casters and you'll never have magic in the world anymore, cause the casters all ended up dead.

 

...

 

That's not to say that with tweaking your idea couldn't be properly placed... but you have to work on it a bit more,

Reason number 6,452 that this game isn't worth playing without TobEx's"concentration check for spell interruption" mod. Anyway liches are immune to charm spells so what you describe wouldn't happen.

 

And the effect need not be something that would interrupt spellcasting - stat penalties, movement penalties, spellcasting speed penalties, thac0/damage/AC/whatever penalties, there are a hundred possibilities. You say the idea needs work?? Of course it does! I write that in 25 seconds, it's not like I decided to make a mod that Revises the game's Spells and spend years perfecting it between each release. :p

 

But hey, maybe I will make this a mod, just to spite you! Should be easy enough...

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Anyway liches are immune to charm spells so what you describe wouldn't happen.

Sorry, but I specifically took the Power Word: Stun as the example as a Lich is not immune to it... on the base of the spell level. If it ever get through the Liches spell defense and it does it's thing without saves, the Lich is dead, even if the effect last for a second cause the player is likely to be able to disable everything else(the rest of the defenses) within that second.

On the same bases you have got to remember, that the Stun effect on any mage that was 'Charmed' will kill it.

 

And the effect need not be something that would interrupt spellcasting -

Actually the effect HAS TO BE something THAT WILL NEVER EVER EVER interrupt spell casting -

Now that's better wording for it.

 

You say the idea needs work?? Of course it does! I write that in 25 seconds, it's ...

Sorry, but not knowing oneself is not an excuse here, you can't unmake your mind over a few minutes of thinking... because a human is not made that way- You were going with this somewhere:

Charm has a 1-second Stun effect on a successful save, as you fight the magic

A place I WILL never be able to support your poor decision of attaching a game chancing effect with no saves.

So I had to step in.

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On-topic: I think +1 luck is ok. It has to be really good for late BG1 to both convince most "charnames" to use it, and fit the intended or supposed role. Fortunately I don't have to fear too much balance issues with stacked luck bonuses because the item is not available within BG2. I'm still not 100% sure how to handle item description, but I guess remaining vague is better. The lore cannot say "this belonged to a Shadow Thief assassin", but it probably needs to somehow hint at it. If you guys can write down a good description you are welcome, I'm currently more busy than ever, but I could squeeze this small tweak into the next build (out within 1-2 days) if I don't have to spend my time on the item's lore.

 

Off-topic: SR is already trying to add many secondary effects on save-or-else spells (clear examples are Disintegrate and Flesh to Stone). I fully agree with subtledoctor on this matter, though Jarno has a point too, it's not always doable, and sometimes it's not even necessary.

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Demi,

 

I have written the item description already and while it's not ideal, it's decent enough as it is, I think. If people want to expand it somehow, I am all ears...

 

About "concentration check for spell interruption": I don't use it myself. I find spellcasters (especially with SCS' smarter mage) to be extremely powerful already without the need to make them even more powerful. I use the "no spell interruption on zero damage" component though...

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About "concentration check for spell interruption": I don't use it myself. I find spellcasters (especially with SCS' smarter mage) to be extremely powerful already

Continuing off-topic (I think the ring is sorted, no?): a lot of SCS' crazy pre-buff routines are born of a manic fear that the PC will burn through defenses and start a pattern of spell interruption, which converts mages from incredibly dangerous to helpless kittens. Making spell interruption related to the amount of damage done takes care of that concern in a sensible and effective way.

 

There's now a trade-off between heavy crossbow bolts and little darts. Little 1hp elemental damage sources like FoA and Stonefire no longer render Stoneskin useless. This lets me use a more toned-down SCS component and still get a challenging and fun experience. I find that maxing out 'Smarter Mages' makes things kind of tedious.

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