Rakshasas and Breach

[kreso]

Now if you agree with this one-way protection scheme you can see why I think as inconsistent applying immunities/properties of the bottom layer to any above it. I.e. lich's stoneskin inheriting it's immunities.

If you are not agree it's a one-way only, then why the innate properties don't apply to the rest of the layers? Why a level 4 secret word can remove shield/deflection and it's not blocked by lich's innate immunities?

Lich has stoneskin on himself, while Deflections are around him.

It's easy enough to make Secret Word having a power level 4 so it doesn't affect Lich kind - but this will drastically favour the player in the long run. MGoI would keep you safe from Spell Thrust (see the nonsense here?), which SCS uses to remove Spell Shield given it's low level (and will use ST to remove MGoI as well).

Likewise, GoI would keep you safe from both ST and Secret Word (see the *utter* nonsense? A spell whose only job is to remove spell protections up to level 7 gets ineffective due to - a spell protection of level 6?! If anything, this would be inconsistent).

[Demivrgvs]

Breach

I see the system as a layered hierarchy of forces...

You described it very well, and that's how I see it as well. My issue with Breach though is that on one hand we want it to have have power 5 to be deflected by protections, otoh you want it to not have a power lvl to ignore spell lvl immunities (and you claim only innate ones, but what if SR still had Greater GoI or something similar?).

I do see your point about "spell removals ignore liches/rakshasas immunities lets make Breach do the same" but the formers do that becuse they "bypass" spell protections as well - unlike Breach (EDIT: see Kreso's post above which I missed before writing this). Spell Thrust isn't blocked by MSD or MGoI, it cancels them, but that's because SR tweaked all spell removals to not have a power lvl (exactly because I share your idea of a multi-layered system).

Mind you, ages ago I was the one to suggest DavidW how to make Breach ignore lich's immunities without making it ignore spell protections. To make it properly work you cannot code the spell as you wish but rather tweak liches themselves (from immune to power lvl 5 to immune to each individual 5th lvl spell except Breach). Pratically it's like saying "Breach will always count as a 5th lvl spell except against liches", that's not consistency imo, it's an exception.

That being said, I admit you do have a point but even if we assume that I could be persuaded to think Breach should affect the "external layer" of combat/specific protections while ignoring lich immunities, does it have to become the standard SR Breach? It's easy enough to apply SCS tweak on top of SR, or am I missing something?

Dispel Magic

Demi, I disagree that your description of Dispel Magic is "consistent." In fact, per your description, it is a special snowflake of a spell that, for no good reason, circumvents all of the careful arranging of spellcaster protections. Unless you meant "consistent" with the vanilla game...

I meant consistent with itself - aka ignores both spell protections and innate immunities. It is indeed a "special spell" in terms of how powerful it can be (really too much imo) but it actually performs as all other 'spell removals' within SCS/SR, it was more special in vanilla when spell removals did not have power lvl 0.

@Fiann by "old editions" I meant 2E and 3E. You know, we are at the 5th edition now.

[kreso]

It's easy enough to apply SCS tweak on top of SR, or am I missing something?

If someone wants to use SR and have Breach which affects Liches just use SCS tweak. Do note that SR's Pierce Shield will loose much of it's mojo (it already lost MR lowering property which it had in vanilla).

[cipher]

Lich has stoneskin on himself, while Deflections are around him.

 

It's easy enough to make Secret Word having a power level 4 so it doesn't affect Lich kind...

 

I have a feeling you misunderstood me.

My view is that combat protections do not become part of the creature they protect, they are around it, so they shouldn't inherit it's properties.

 

Also of course spell removal spells should not get blocked by the spells they aim to remove! They are specialised attacks on a specific kind of defense. Being stopped by their target seems kinda counterintuitive. Similarly Lower Magic Resistance would be silly to get stopped by magic resistance or Malison requiring a save.

 

That being said, I admit you do have a point but even if we assume that I could be persuaded to think Breach should affect the "external layer" of combat/specific protections while ignoring lich immunities, does it have to become the standard SR Breach? It's easy enough to apply SCS tweak on top of SR, or am I missing something?

 

Of course it doesn't have to. I just stated my view as part of an ongoing discussion. In the end if you think that technical, balancing or plain preference reasons are not justifying the change, don't do it. It's indeed easy enough for any user to apply it if they so choose.

 

@kreso's 2nd post: I don't think Pierce Shield will lose any of its mojo. It will still do the job of 2 spells in one move, which means either one round of casting or one caster doing something else. Of course the competition on 8th level spell slots is fierce and SR is making it even more so.

[subtledoctor]

I think what cipher is suggesting is that, unlike Charm or Disintegrate, Breach doesn't actually affect a creature; it affects the various magical protections that creature has raised (which can be thought of as being in front of, or apart from, the creature itself... whereas its inherent immunities can never be distinguished from the creature itself (though, see below).

 

In that sense, it makes perfect sense that Breach might be blocked by spell protections (the outermost 'layer,' if you like) but in the absence of any Deflections it should work to remove combat/specific protections regardless of the creature's level immunities. Those immunities will protect it from direct spells like Charm and Disintegrate, not from meta-spells like Breach or Pierce Magic. As a house-ruling DM (i.e. modder) I think that makes perfect sense and I have no problem imposing such a rule.

 

Implementation is another matter. Demi, as Galactygon pointed out there are serious shortcomings with the method of "just make rakring.itm give immunity to specific spells." At the very least, the SCS method of doing so is insufficient. It should instead loop through spell.ids getting the RES_NUM_OF _SPELL_NAME, matching that to a regexp to establish the spell level, and then adding immunity that spell via ADD_ITEM_EQEFFECT. That way, as long as a modder adds spells via ADD_SPELL, they will be covered by the immunity.

 

But I think Galactygon's suggestion is a viable alternative. Maybe the ideal would be to add a 0-point AC bonus at power=5 to the top of Breach's effects, the have the breaching effects be power=0. That should bypass creature immunities. It will also bypass Deflection, but you can simply patch Deflection to specifically provide immunity to Breach spells. Then you have to eliminate the Deflection to make Breach work.

 

I actually don't like Dispel having such luxury and I never understood why old editions gave so much power to a 3rd lvl spell but changing it is out of question imo. If Dispel had a proper power lvl, SCS could simply use MGoI to stop it instead of SI:Abj - which could be a good thing imo - but that cannot be done without also touching SCS scripts as the AI would keep wasting spell slots on SI:Abj. Also note that such tweak would make Dispel not work anymore against liches/rakshasas (ironically, Dispel is your best tool against them right now as Kreso pointed out).

 

Dispel not working against liches/rakshasas would be a *good* thing IMO. Their immunities should work against all magic, (including Dispel & Breach) or it should not work against metamagic. But I just can't see how one can split the baby and say Dispel works but Breach doesn't. I don't think it's worth worrying about the AI using SI:Abj against Dispel, since 1) it's not like the AI can cast that spell *in response* to the player casting Dispel, it has to be cast in advance; and 2) casting it in advance has other benefits - protecting from other Abjuration spells - so it won't be wasted; and 3) it will still work against Dispel, so even if it's ever-so-slightly 'wasteful' (being one level higher than a spell they might otherwise cast... not the end of the world IMHO), it will still achieve its goal from a gameplay perspective.

 

Plus, if you think that really is too wasteful, you can simply patch SI:Abj to be level 4 instead of level 5. The player doesn't have access to it in SR anyway, so they won't notice the difference; the only effect will be to let the AI use a level 4 slot instead of a level 5 slot. Gameplay-wise, I seriously doubt any player will be able to tell anything unusual is going on, and anyway this game is full of arbitrary exceptions to the rules.

 

As for Breach, I've been toying with the idea of making it *more* effective against liches and rakshasas, by having it scramble their spell level immunity for a short duration. (Though maybe this would be more appropriate for Ruby Ray or something.) Like, hit a rakshasa with Breach or Ruby Ray and then you have a 2-3 round window to blast it with Fireballs or Magic Missiles. That could be fun.

[kreso]

It will also bypass Deflection, but you can simply patch Deflection to specifically provide immunity to Breach spells. Then you have to eliminate the Deflection to make Breach work.

You can, but Breach wouldn't eat up Deflection levels.

Fwiw, I think the current system SR uses is fine, if anyone wants less hardcore Liches&Raks use SCS tweak on top and all are happy.

[subtledoctor]

Fwiw, I think the current system SR uses is fine, if anyone wants less hardcore Liches&Raks use SCS tweak on top and all are happy.

Ya but this whole discussion started because the SCS tweak is not working very well. And so trying to figure out what is a better way to get to the same end result.

[toxin]

DavidW added an optional tweak to make Breach ignore those immunities as a convenient tool for less hardcore players, not to improve consistency.

 

I do not believe this to be true. From the official docs:

More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning)

Although it isn't documented, the 5th level spell Breach will remove a creature's combat protections (such as Stoneskin) even if that creature is protected by Spell Deflection, Spell Turning or Spell Trap; it will not, however, affect creatures like liches or rakshasas, because they are immune to spells of level 5 or below. This component removes both features: Breach now bounces off Spell Turning (etc.), but it affects even those creatures immune to "normal" 5th level spells.

Once this component is installed, the Breach effect of the Wand of Spell Striking will behave in exactly the same way as the Breach spell.

Enemy wizards will assume Breach works this way (and so won't target characters protected by Spell Turning etc with a Breach), even if you don't install this component.

 

David explicitly categorizes it as a consistency fix, and goes as far as to assume this is is how it works in the mod's crowning glory - the modified AI. I have to say I agree - a lich who's already immune to normal weapons, casting protection from magical weapons, and then being immune to anything that dispels that (not to mention any other lvl<5 spell and many other conditions) is a bit cheesy IMHO.

[kreso]

I have to say I agree - a lich who's already immune to normal weapons, casting protection from magical weapons, and then being immune to anything that dispels that (not to mention any other lvl<5 spell and many other conditions) is a bit cheesy IMHO.

 

I must say I disagree with this. Liches are supposed to be hard enemies, not something which dies to a single hit from Mace of Disruption and similar stuff.

[toxin]

I must say I disagree with this. Liches are supposed to be hard enemies, not something which dies to a single hit from Mace of Disruption and similar stuff.

 

Agreed, but casting a spell that can't be dispelled and renders them invulnerable to all weapons is a bit too much IMO. And it's not like making liches vulnerable to breach makes them helpless - you'd still have to dispel their Spell Trap first (possibly dealing with a spell shield before that). In SCS, by the time you bypassed all these layers they'd have already cast Improved Invisibility + SI:Divination, Time Stop, Gate, Meteor Swarm... Sure, if you have high level casters you could try disrupting some of those spells, but if you're high level enough I think that makes sense.

[subtledoctor]

I have to say I agree with toxin there. Plus it makes very little sense to say "Liches are *supposed* to be near-impossible to kill!" and in the same breath, "...but a dinky 3rd-level spell can strip them bare of all protections."

[kreso]

Agreed, but casting a spell that can't be dispelled and renders them invulnerable to all weapons is a bit too much IMO.

It works that way even in vanilla, and quite a few enemies who have inborn normal weapon immunity use PfMW. Then again, I don't use non-enchanted weapons vs PfMW so in my game Liches are all around! (minus the immunity to all level 5 and below spells)....

 

it makes very little sense to say "Liches are *supposed* to be near-impossible to kill!" and in the same breath, "...but a dinky 3rd-level spell can strip them bare of all protections."

I never said that (by "hard" I mean challenging, not "hard to kill". They're 25th level undead mages, not some random punks.)

Likewise, I don't feel as if Remove/Dispel are all that OP as stated in this thread. It doesn't remove Spell protections even if it's succesfull.

If used against player, careful positioning mitigates it. If used against AI, SI:Abj and levels can work for them.

[toxin]

It works that way even in vanilla, and quite a few enemies who have inborn normal weapon immunity use PfMW. Then again, I don't use non-enchanted weapons vs PfMW so in my game Liches are all around! (minus the immunity to all level 5 and below spells)....

 

Man, you are a glutton for punishment

 

It's funny but the original reason I installed SCS was actually exactly for the breach consistency fix of the vanilla behavior... it just seemed like an abuse of the rules, or even an oversight on the part of the devs, to give it an advantage that can't be countered by your party. I mean that's the point of the game - the enemy does something, you counter. You do something, your enemy counters. You prepare intelligently against an opponent - his attack is wasted (a "precounter" if you will). But here your only way to "counter" the immunity is to run away and wait it out (or worse, stick around hoping to survive by partial luck and a lot of potions). To me this is not a viable strategy - at this point the fight is more unfair and cheesy than challenging.

 

I totally agree with you regarding Dispel though - it is only reliably effective if you're a few levels over the lich's, at which point it makes sense for you to pwn it anyway (especially if there's 6 of you... heck, you could even turn them!) and that's not even mentioning SI:Abj as your pointed out.

[kreso]

But here your only way to "counter" the immunity is to run away and wait it out (or worse, stick around hoping to survive by partial luck and a lot of potions). To me this is not a viable strategy - at this point the fight is more unfair than challenging.

Well, once you remove Spell protections, Liches are quite vulnerable to magic actually. Weapon attacks may be futile due to PfMW, but higher level damage spells do work. I find clerical spells very effective against them.

[toxin]

Well, once you remove Spell protections, Liches are quite vulnerable to magic actually. Weapon attacks may be futile due to PfMW, but higher level damage spells do work. I find clerical spells very effective against them.

 

You mean vulnerable to magic damage - if memory serves they are all but immune to any form of magic effect (confusion, hold, sleep, death, etc). Coupled with their high saves, you would need some pretty high level casters indeed to finish them off with damage-based spells alone. And I really don't like the idea of all the fighters sitting around doing nothing! The opposite sure doesn't hold when creatures are immune to magic - you can always buff your fighters, summon monsters, heal, or even cast Tenser's Transformation and join the fight...