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Unearthed Arcana presents Might & Guile: tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues


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On 5/10/2021 at 1:11 PM, rick2021 said:

Am I on the right track or completly wrong here?

You were indeed on the right track, but I was ahead of you. This and most of my other mods have been updated to fix this install problem on 2.6.

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Hey subtledoctor. Just finished a trilogy playthrough using your mods (F&P, M&G, T&B, SoB, Random Tweaks, and NPC_EE). A lot of fun. I love the freshness of it.

Have some comments / bug reports. None that are super-urgent but just wanted to let you know, as someone who's spent a lot of hours with your mods.

  1. When characters who've learned feats leave the party and rejoin it, the feat selection screen no longer tracks the feats they've learned. The feats' effects are still present, but the feats themselves can be re-selected with the next feat ability.
  2. Had some issues with the innate Contingencies and Spell Triggers, using Innate Metamagic. The biggest one was that if I use the Contingency/Trigger ability, but then cancel it or fail to set it somehow, the ability disappears permanently and I have to edit it back on.
  3. Most Mage NPCs still know the Contingency spell. Among them are Tyris, Minyae, rescued Imoen, ToB Jan, etc.
  4. Some issues with syncing Contingencies/Triggers in the spellbook with the innate abilities. (This probably isn't going to be very helpful.) Sometimes, I'll have a Contingency in my spellbook but the Contingency ability will still be in my innate abilities. Sometimes I'll have a Spell Trigger NOT in my spellbook, but the USE Spell Trigger ability (the one with the blue icon) is in my innate abilities. Sometimes I'll have both the white ability (setup trigger) along with the blue ability (use trigger) in my innate abilities at the same time. I haven't been able to determine why these desyncs occur, but they're mostly just cosmetic/UI issues.
  5. I think some of the proficiencies in the Readme are incorrect. It might be due to using different versions of the mod or because I'm also using Scales of Balance, but in mine, the Hand of Torm can get 2 pips in most things, not 1. Maybe this information should just be included in the kit descriptions at character generation? Or maybe you can write out the general rules and then the additions to those rules? (I.e. Clerics of Helm can put an extra pip in Longsword.)  This seems like it'll be a real pain for you to write and keep updated, especially if the FC/CM/CT versions are included as well, so I don't really know what a good solution would be, but there were definitely times in the game I was really puzzled as to what proficiencies a priest could learn and what weapons they could use (I.e. Getting Spear/Halberd proficiency, but then not being able to use Halberds), or not knowing what armor type each cleric kit can use, and there were occasionally mismatches between dialogue-based proficiency learning and level-up proficiency learning.
  6. The Weapon Focus feat doesn't seem to be working. I might not be understanding it properly, but I thought it would allow me to put an extra pip in a proficiency over the normal maximum for that class, but that extra pip option never seemed to come up. (I'd just EEKeeper it instead.)
  7. Sometimes the NPC_EE remove-proficiencies-and-relearn-them option wouldn't work and would fail to remove proficiencies from an NPC.
  8. Sometimes whatever it is you do with hidden proficiencies causes weird visual bugs in-game and in EEKeeper. They don't necessarily occur at the same time either, which I find weird, but I've never been able to figure out what causes it. (See screenshots below.)
    image.png.fffeb37151b86e808a23f05a7cd19a9d.pngimage.png.bc1452c7f1d31b9ad988ec6dd173cad7.png
  9. In d5_ckit.bcs, I had to add SetGlobal("D5KITTLK","GLOBAL",0) to the last block. I'm trying to remember why right now, and I think it was if I used Choose a Kit, but then chose not to change the kit and just reset my proficiencies, the global would never be reset and then the invisible monster would never engage in dialogue. I think. I made this change months ago so I do not exactly recall.
  10. I think, for some reason, Faith and Powers changed the category of all the bastard swords in the game to Morning Star (22). I am basing this on the backup files I have, where the FnP backup of SW1H01.ITM is a Large Sword (20), but the MnG, which installed immediately after, backup of the item is a Morning Star (22). I'm not really sure why FnP would change it like this, so if I'm mistaken about that I apologize, but then Item Revisions used that category and assigned all the Bastard Swords in the game to Mace proficiency and Mace appearance, and then Scales of Balance changed them to Club proficiency.
  11. The modified version of Barkskin that renews a skin every round makes an incredibly annoying sound every round too.
  12. Personally, I modded multiclasses to learn feats as well and have the full set of HLAs available to their base classes. That's just what I'm looking for when I play a dual-class or multi-class. Maybe it's a little overpowered, but I'm playing the trilogy for the umpteenth time now so I want my shiny toys (also I have SCS and Ascension, so...). Wouldn't mind if those became base components, but if not, I can continue doing the editing myself.
  13. Is it intended for feats to stop being earned at around level 20? I noticed you have more feat abilities created but that they're not all used in the clab files.

 

Anyways, sorry if any of these issues aren't actually coming from your mods or if the descriptions aren't particularly helpful. I've been playing this playthrough for months now and most of these issues I fixed myself so I could just keep playing, and so I don't have total recall of everything I messed with, especially since I was mega-modding. If you need any help testing or isolating anything, I can help with that, though I imagine you're pretty busy with 2.6 compatibility issues right now.

I really do want to emphasize how much I enjoy playing with your mods. They change up a game that I've been playing for years now and introduce some fresh new mechanical elements to it. They really make playing again a lot less repetitive and a lot more fun!

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@hippofant thanks for the feedback! Stuff like this is always valuable. I'll address a couple things:

2 hours ago, hippofant said:

When characters who've learned feats leave the party and rejoin it, the feat selection screen no longer tracks the feats they've learned. The feats' effects are still present, but the feats themselves can be re-selected with the next feat ability.

Good to know. And super annoying. In general the opaque and sometimes haphazard rules for what the game engine does to characters who leave and rejoin is super annoying... :(

2 hours ago, hippofant said:

The biggest one was that if I use the Contingency/Trigger ability, but then cancel it or fail to set it somehow, the ability disappears permanently and I have to edit it back on.

Huh. That may be a circumstance I didn't test... TBH I didn't know it was even possible to cast the spell but not set the contingency.

2 hours ago, hippofant said:

Most Mage NPCs still know the Contingency spell. Among them are Tyris, Minyae, rescued Imoen, ToB Jan, etc.

This sounds like an oversight that should be easy to fix.

2 hours ago, hippofant said:

I think some of the proficiencies in the Readme are incorrect. It might be due to using different versions of the mod or because I'm also using Scales of Balance, but in mine, the Hand of Torm can get 2 pips in most things, not 1. Maybe this information should just be included in the kit descriptions at character generation?

I think the issue here is with Scales of Balance: it changes the entire proficiency system, with basic rule changes like

fighters -> 5 stars
non-fighter warriors -> 2 stars
everyone else -> 1 star

to

fighters -> 4 stars
non-fighter warriors -> 3 stars
priests and rogues -> 2 stars
wizards -> 1 star

Now some kits have different rules, like some cleric kits in FnP can get specialization instead of proficiency. But that is based on the base game rules. SoB comes later and changes it, but the FnP description can't know whether SoB will be installed later, and SoB can't know which kits have been installed, and it can't really apply generalized kit description patches because various kit describe proficiency limits in different ways - never mind in different translations of different languages!

The best I can think is that SoB can sketch out the base system more clearly in the general class descriptions; and kits can try to be more general about how they describe proficiency limits (i.e. instead of saying "can reach specialization" say "can reach one level of proficiency higher than most clerics"). But even this has limits - for one thing, I am not the author of many kits, even within FnP; and for another thing, consider that FnP's proficiency limits are meant to be user-configurable. It's not the most user-friendly thing at the moment, but you can go into the FnP class .tpa files and set every kit to whatever proficiency level you want for every weapon, to have complete control over how those rules are implemented in your game.* There is no way to allow SoB to handle kit description patching for all of these eventualities.

* (As an aside, this is really the broad direction my mods have taken: to allow these systems to be user-configurable. Which sphere system do you want? Which spheres do each kit get? Which proficiencies? Etc. To really give each player the ability to set up the rules and act as their own DM.)

Another solution is to change the SoB proficiency system again, and maybe tone down the extent to which it deviates from the base game. I'm still not entirely happy with it...

2 hours ago, hippofant said:

The Weapon Focus feat doesn't seem to be working. I might not be understanding it properly, but I thought it would allow me to put an extra pip in a proficiency over the normal maximum for that class, but that extra pip option never seemed to come up.

It cannot give you an extra pip in the normal proficiency screen, but it can do so by dialogue, and I think what it does is give you an innate ability, just like the NPC_EE ones. I think there was an issue with it not giving you the ability, and I think I fixed that recently... I'll double-check.

Note, even by dialogue, it cannot give you more stars than the proficiency system itself gives you fighters. So with SoB, you cannot use this to go above 4 stars; there is, after all, no benefit to going above 4 stars. The Weapon Focus ability is essentially mean to allow certain rogues to reach the same proficiency level - in one weapon - as rangers and paladins. You'll still have rogue thac0, but you'll have ranger/paladin APR, which should hopefully stake out a nice middle ground in being more combat-capable than other rogues, but still not usurping the place of non-fighter warriors.

2 hours ago, hippofant said:

Sometimes the NPC_EE remove-proficiencies-and-relearn-them option wouldn't work and would fail to remove proficiencies from an NPC

You mean certain NPCs? Or certain proficiencies? The nature of it is, if you choose a proficiency at the level-up screen, it cannot be removed. So if you recruit Minsc, level him up and have him go from one star to two stars in maces, and then use the NPC_EE ability, those stars in maces will not be removed, while his other proficiencies in 2-hand swords etc. will be removed. To avoid using this as an exploit, the nest practice is to always use the NPC_EE kit-change ability immediately after recruiting someone.

3 hours ago, hippofant said:

Sometimes whatever it is you do with hidden proficiencies causes weird visual bugs in-game and in EEKeeper.

Not sure what's causing the issue in the first screenshot, because my mods don't use the proficiencies for long sword, short sword, etc. They do use the 'club' proficiency, and that value in the EEKeeper screenshot, while it looks weird, is numerically valid. Don't mess with it! (Well, if you want to increase your club proficiency by 1 I'm pretty sure you can just make that number 1 higher, and it will work fine. But, try not to mess with it.)

3 hours ago, hippofant said:

In d5_ckit.bcs, I had to add SetGlobal("D5KITTLK","GLOBAL",0) to the last block.

Thanks. I have changed the NPC_EE script recently to add the ability to change ability scores (!) and I'm pretty sure this was fixed in the course of that. But I'll double-check.

3 hours ago, hippofant said:

The modified version of Barkskin that renews a skin every round makes an incredibly annoying sound every round

This has already been fixed in the most recent versions.

3 hours ago, hippofant said:

Is it intended for feats to stop being earned at around level 20?

Yup. Starting at level 20 you get HLAs, which are like Uber-feats. (I understand that ot's not always level 20, but I use the Tweaks Anthology mod to make it level 20 for every class, even multiclasses. I think making this change at level 20 is most in keeping with the spirit and written rules of the 2E system, so that's what the feats system uses as a cutoff.)

Saved for last because the reply is going to be long-winded:

3 hours ago, hippofant said:

I think, for some reason, Faith and Powers changed the category of all the bastard swords in the game to Morning Star (22). I am basing this on the backup files I have, where the FnP backup of SW1H01.ITM is a Large Sword (20), [...] then Item Revisions used that category and assigned all the Bastard Swords in the game to Mace proficiency and Mace appearance, and then Scales of Balance changed them to Club proficiency.

I want you to change the way you think about this: those values are actually just numerical; the category of "morning stars" or "large swords" is just a gloss that was added by ShadowKeeper and Near Infinity. So what the mod really did was change bastard sword from category 20, to category 22. Doesn't sounds as weird now, does it?

Now, what are those categories, really? Behind the scenes, they do two things that I'm aware of: 1) they work with opcode 181 to allow category-based usability exclusions applied by spell or script, instead of by .ITM flags; and 2) those with values above 29 cannot be used for dual-wielding.  FnP wants to use opcode 181 for real kit-based item usability exclusions, for hundreds of kits instead of just for the three kits with .ITM flags. But the problem is, long swords/bastard swords/scimitars/katanas are all bunched together under category 20 ("large swords"). In order to do this, we need to find three new category numbers for bastard swords/scimitars/katanas... and those categories have to be below 30, since they are all 1-handed weapons.

We clear two categories by moving spears and halberds to values above 30; this doesn't matter for them since they are 2-handed weapons and cannot be used while dual-wielding anyway. For the third category to free up, we can move morning stars; they don't need their own category since they share a proficiency, and the goal is to have a category that lines up with each proficiency. So we move morning stars either to the flails category, if IR Weapon Changes are not installed, or the maces category if IR Weapon Changes are installed.**

** As you might guess, this hints at the solution to your problem: just install IR before FnP, since FnP is reactive to IR but IR is not reactive to FnP.

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