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Unearthed Arcana presents Might & Guile: tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues


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1 hour ago, Chitown Willie said:

trying to understand Feats and Bards

MnG Revised Bards always use feats... if installed alone, they can be used to learn new songs. If installed along with the Feat System, they can be used to learn new songs or to take various other feats. 

The list of who gets feats is here. Barbs use clabfi05, right? Then yeah, they get feats. I made Minsc a barbarian in my current game and he gets feats. (I use the “Revised Rage” component, I don’t remember if that is necessary.)

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Hi, I was trying to create a french localization for MnG, mostly for my own use ( but if it reaches completion and I'm satified with it, I way submit it).

I stumble upon mostly duplicated entries, some are probably (AFAII) legit, like a version a of a class description with feats enabled and another without, but I think the kensai descriptions, each for one weapon seem to be unused (in fact, the 260_revised_kensai.tpa seems to be mostly commented out).

Do you think I can ignore the @2601 - @2631 range ?

 

EDIT: i'm never entirely sure because the RESOLVE_STR_REF appears to hide where tra strings are used (as far (little) as I understand it)... In fact it doesn't

Edited by mickabouille
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When I have bg1npcsoa installed, they add a 7xcre3.cre file (which I believe is Garrick).

The revised bards, multikit component fails to parse npc_con or %npc_con% as an integer, and won't install.

I'm peeking at the file in near infinity now, but just thought I'd note that I finally found why this component wasn't working for me.

Looks like it's a V1.0 CRE file in the header - not sure if that's relevant (I'm attempting BGEET install).  It looks like m&g components 0x23d is the correct read for npc_con (obviously) and standard in v1.0 or v1.2 - I saved the cre file with NI without making any changes, and diff shows the 7xcre3.cre file in override/ and the copy I re-saved do differ, so I'm placing my re-saved file in override and attempting to install that component again.

Also, I guess any multitude of other mods could have tinkered with this file that I've added between bg1npcsoa and M&G...maybe something left an extra byte somewhere, ruining the offsets...

Edit: that quick adjustment didn't seem to get to the point of mod install - I wonder if the component could just skip the npc_con block when it fails to parse?  Better an incorrect HP bard than a full install failure maybe?  (assuming this block is writing bytes to add some con bonus or something?)

Another Edit:

I seem to have installed it successfully by updating the tpa file as such (nested PATCH_IF, or AND, both are sort of ugly, so just went with nested):

*** 210_revised_bards.tpa.bak	2022-01-16 18:12:02.814687988 -0500
--- 210_revised_bards.tpa	2022-01-16 18:17:03.134414123 -0500
*************** ACTION_PHP_EACH JOINABLE_NPC_ARRAY AS cr
*** 5374,5379 ****
--- 5374,5380 ----
  		  WRITE_BYTE 0x0069 5
  		  WRITE_BYTE 0x006a 5
  	 	  READ_BYTE 0x23d npc_con
+ 		 PATCH_IF (IS_AN_INT npc_con) BEGIN
  		  PATCH_IF (npc_con < 15) BEGIN
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x24 6
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x26 6
*************** ACTION_PHP_EACH JOINABLE_NPC_ARRAY AS cr
*** 5386,5391 ****
--- 5387,5393 ----
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x24 8
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x26 8
  		  END
+ 		 END
  		END
  		PATCH_IF (old_kit = 16397) BEGIN 								// blades
  		  WRITE_BYTE 0x234 1 											// sets level to 1
*************** ACTION_PHP_EACH JOINABLE_NPC_ARRAY AS cr
*** 5403,5408 ****
--- 5405,5411 ----
  		  WRITE_BYTE 0x0069 5
  		  WRITE_BYTE 0x006a 5
  	 	  READ_BYTE 0x23d npc_con
+ 		 PATCH_IF (IS_AN_INT npc_con) BEGIN
  		  PATCH_IF (npc_con < 15) BEGIN
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x24 6
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x26 6
*************** ACTION_PHP_EACH JOINABLE_NPC_ARRAY AS cr
*** 5415,5420 ****
--- 5418,5424 ----
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x24 8
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x26 8
  		  END
+ 		 END
  		END
  		PATCH_IF (old_kit = 16398) BEGIN 								// jesters
  		  WRITE_BYTE 0x234 1 											// sets level to 1
*************** ACTION_PHP_EACH JOINABLE_NPC_ARRAY AS cr
*** 5432,5437 ****
--- 5436,5442 ----
  		  WRITE_BYTE 0x0069 5
  		  WRITE_BYTE 0x006a 5
  	 	  READ_BYTE 0x23d npc_con
+ 		 PATCH_IF (IS_AN_INT npc_con) BEGIN
  		  PATCH_IF (npc_con < 15) BEGIN
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x24 6
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x26 6
*************** ACTION_PHP_EACH JOINABLE_NPC_ARRAY AS cr
*** 5444,5449 ****
--- 5449,5455 ----
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x24 8
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x26 8
  		  END
+ 		 END
  		END
  		REMOVE_KNOWN_SPELLS
  		REMOVE_MEMORIZED_SPELLS
*************** ACTION_PHP_EACH JOINABLE_NPC_ARRAY AS cr
*** 5457,5462 ****
--- 5463,5469 ----
  		  WRITE_SHORT 0x244 (%nu_skald_code% >> 16) & 0xffff
  		  WRITE_SHORT 0x246 %nu_skald_code% & 0xffff
  		  WRITE_BYTE 0x0066 25
+ 		 PATCH_IF (IS_AN_INT npc_con) BEGIN
  		  PATCH_IF (npc_con < 15) BEGIN
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x24 8
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x26 8
*************** ACTION_PHP_EACH JOINABLE_NPC_ARRAY AS cr
*** 5477,5482 ****
--- 5484,5490 ----
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x24 12
  			WRITE_SHORT 0x26 12
  		  END
+ 		 END
  		END
  		PATCH_IF FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~d5__rfeat.d5~ BEGIN
  			LPF ADD_CRE_EFFECT INT_VAR opcode = 171 target = 1 timing = 9 STR_VAR resource = ~d5feata~ END
*************** ACTION_FOR_EACH char IN ~garric~ ~garric
*** 5502,5507 ****
--- 5510,5516 ----
  		  WRITE_SHORT 0x244 (%nu_gallant_code% >> 16) & 0xffff
  		  WRITE_SHORT 0x246 %nu_gallant_code% & 0xffff
  	  READ_BYTE 0x23d npc_con
+ 	 PATCH_IF (IS_AN_INT npc_con) BEGIN
  	  PATCH_IF (npc_con < 15) BEGIN
  		WRITE_SHORT 0x24 8
  		WRITE_SHORT 0x26 8
*************** ACTION_FOR_EACH char IN ~garric~ ~garric
*** 5522,5527 ****
--- 5531,5537 ----
  		WRITE_SHORT 0x24 12
  		WRITE_SHORT 0x26 12
  	  END
+  	 END
  // ***** figure out proficiencies (just double what's already there??)
  	  LPF ALTER_EFFECT INT_VAR silent = 1 match_opcode = 233 match_parameter1 = 1 parameter1 = 2 END
  	BUT_ONLY

Time will tell if this ensures it is properly playable or not...

Edited by ahungry
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Guest Szaumoor

Tried installing on BG2EE. Shadowdancer class disappeared when I install either the feat system OR the shadowdancer revision. Tried making an assassin, and when I reached a high enough level, there were options in the HLA table that had no name, and added nothing if you selected them.

Sorry if my English is awkward.

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The latest version seemed to have fixed the problem of not having Shadowdancers. I made one in Throne of Bhaal. Seemed to behave like a regular Thief. 5x backstab without any feats, it did not have Shadowstep or "Shadow Pool", couldn't select Shadow Magic feat, and even the colors of the class were not the usual black. The description in the character creation menu was different from the one you can see while playing as well. In the HLA table, they have both Shadow Maze and Maze Trap, which is redundant. They have a duplicate Basic Alchemy HLA.

They also have Spell Dodge and Escape Artist as HLA, not sure if that's intended. That's all possible the errors I spotted anyway.

Edited by RoyalProtector
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I've been doing a play through as a "Thug" (fighter/thief multi).

I feel like they're a bit weak compared to trueclass fighter/thief, which seems to get a few feats, as the pros/cons are:

 

Abilities:
– +1 bonus to Strength.
– +1 bonus to backstab multiplier.

Restrictions:
– -2 penalty to Dexterity.
– May not use the Open Locks, Detect Illusion, or Set Traps skills.
– May only distribute 20 skill points each level.
– May not be Lawful or Good alignments.

 

With scales of balance, the +1 str is mostly negligible (the damage/thaco bonuses on str is mostly useless - str is just a pre-req for equipping gear), and the +1 backstab multiplier is a single feat (which a trueclass FT could choose).

The penalties are extreme here (no detect illusion being the big one for late game).

However, despite this, I found the biggest benefit of the class (with SoB) is that a trueclass FT can choose Dual Wield or Single weapon, but no shield style/two handed style, while the thug can choose shield style/two hand style, yet this (proficiency selection) isn't mentioned in the Pros section at all - I just happened to discover it (this is particularly fun with the Anthology Tweaks "2h katana" as it allows backtabbing with the katana while wielded/proficient in 2h).

Overall, I think if "Thug" received feats, they would be balanced (not stronger than trueclass, but having a useful alternative setup).

Edited by ahungry
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23 hours ago, ahungry said:

the +1 str is mostly negligible (the damage/thaco bonuses on str is mostly useless - str is just a pre-req for equipping gear)

I mean, it allows you to have 19 STR without being a half-orc, which can be pretty amazing for a rogue.

But more generally, yeah, this kit was created well before the feat system and thus is not meant to be balanced against feats. (Moreover, even once the feat system was created, it was only intended for single-class thieves, specifically to allow single-class thieves to be more competitive against the far more popular multiclasses.  I don't remember why I let people talk me into giving feats to multiclasses...

Not having Detect Illusion might indeed be too harsh... given that this kit might find employ as bouncers/door guards/bodyguards, it makes sense that they would learn to see through tricks, disguises, and illusions. (Whereas they would probably be more inclined to smash locks than pick them.) Maybe no pick pockets instead?

I might also be convinced to give them feats as well, though the selection would be pretty slim. Also there is the problem of giving feats to a kit after the feat system is installed... not easy. :(  Would probably need to include this kit by default with the feats component. Hmmm...

Edited by subtledoctor
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Okay @ahungry convinced me, and it turned out not to be that difficult, so now some of the multiclass kits (Loremaster, Ranger/Thief, Tomb Runner, and Thug) get feats. The Thug can now also put points in Detect Illusions. And all kits now get skill points in multiples of 5 so they can more easily be used with the SCS tweak that lets you spend points in multiples of 5.

On 1/20/2022 at 5:12 AM, Guest Szaumoor said:

Tried installing on BG2EE. Shadowdancer class disappeared when I install either the feat system OR the shadowdancer revision. Tried making an assassin, and when I reached a high enough level, there were options in the HLA table that had no name, and added nothing if you selected them.

Fixed.

On 1/21/2022 at 7:19 AM, RoyalProtector said:

Shadowdancers...  Seemed to behave like a regular Thief. 5x backstab without any feats, it did not have Shadowstep or "Shadow Pool", couldn't select Shadow Magic feat, and even the colors of the class were not the usual black. The description in the character creation menu was different from the one you can see while playing as well... They also have Spell Dodge and Escape Artist as HLA, not sure if that's intended

All intended. The Shadow Magic is available from level 9, you have to go to "spell level 2" in the choose feats UI. Hmm... should probably give that to them sooner.

On 12/28/2021 at 6:47 AM, mickabouille said:

Hi, I was trying to create a french localization for MnG, mostly for my own use ( but if it reaches completion and I'm satified with it, I way submit it).

I stumble upon mostly duplicated entries,

Sorry about that, the .tra file here is an absolute mess, it's because this mod used to be (a long time ago) Scales of Balance, then I sheared SoB off and turned it into an independent thing and renamed this one. But there are multiple kit descriptions for different combinations of install options, some of which are no longer even possible. At this point I'm not sure which ones are used and which aren't. It would take a bit of effort to figure it out. Like I say, it's a mess. (I think all my other mods have pretty streamlined .tra files though!)

Edited by subtledoctor
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Woohoo!

Btw - another question - Ranger (Stalker) notes backstab modifiers of x2 up until level 8(?) or so in the kit description, yet my stalker has x1 - I was able to choose Enhanced Backstab feat to get to x2, but am I correct in assuming I should have a native backstab and the feat should be bumping me up to x3 at this level?

Or are all Stalker backstabs intended to be increased via feat only now?

Edited by ahungry
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On 1/24/2022 at 4:27 PM, ahungry said:

Woohoo!

Btw - another question - Ranger (Stalker) notes backstab modifiers of x2 up until level 8(?) or so in the kit description, yet my stalker has x1 - I was able to choose Enhanced Backstab feat to get to x2, but am I correct in assuming I should have a native backstab and the feat should be bumping me up to x3 at this level?

Or are all Stalker backstabs intended to be increased via feat only now?

Feats take the place of kit abilities for any kit that gets feats. So if you want your Stalker to backstab you need to take that feat. Essentially, the Stalker's special characteristic is that they can take the Enhanced Backstab feat (more than once!), whereas other rangers cannot.

(I know it means the kit description is not perfect, but trying to make kit descriptions account for every single possible modification has become impossible. If it's correct about backstabbing/feats, it will be incorrect about SoB Proficiencies. Or incorrect about FnP sphere access. Etc. With so many mods that alter the same kits, it's just not doable. (See Mickabouille's issue with trying to translate all the different versions, just above.))

Edited by subtledoctor
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Small question with the Spellfilcher kit (revised multiclasses).  deleted the question

EDIT: nevermind, I was looking at the backstab.2da file, where the progression was similar to Stalker. I actually checked in-game and the progression does go to x5 like a regular thief.

 

EDIT2: I did notice a couple other things, tested with EE v2.6.6

  • The multiclass thieves use the regular thief progression for backstab. So Loremaster gets up to x5, Tomb Runner doesn't have the slower progression of Stalker, etc.. It seems to be ignoring the lines in the backstab.2da, which is also why spellfilcher wasn't progressing as I expected.
  • Tomb Runner kit is gaining an extra +1 to backstab at level 17. Specifically, it has AP_SPCL332 in it's 2da file.
Edited by Dan_P
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5 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Feats take the place of kit abilities for any kit that gets feats. So if you want your Stalker to backstab you need to take that feat. Essentially, the Stalker's special characteristic is that they can take the Enhanced Backstab feat (more than once!), whereas other rangers cannot.

(I know it means the kit description is not perfect, but trying to make kit descriptions account for every single possible modification has become impossible. If it's correct about backstabbing/feats, it will be incorrect about SoB Proficiencies. Or incorrect about FnP sphere access. Etc. With so many mods that alter the same kits, it's just not doable. (See Mickabouille's issue with trying to translate all the different versions, just above.))

That's neat!  Although I believe Stalker has a bug atm if that's the case, as I do not seem able to take Enhanced Backstab more than once (putting myself at a x2 backstab, when the vanilla kit would tend to allow up to a x4).  I even tried console leveling to 20+ and while i did receive more feat selections, Enhanced Backstab never re-appears in the tier 1 (or any higher tier) feat selection list after having chosen it once.

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A different question, semi-related to my previous post. How exactly do the multiclass thief kits gain their abilities?

As mentioned, Tomb Runner gains an extra +1 backstab at level 17. I was trying to patch it out, but editing the 2da in the override doesn't change given abilities. Editing the 2da in the mod folder (before installing) does make the changes. So I'm assuming the abilities are added from some other custom file. It's probably obvious what it is, but I couldn't figure it out.

Additional note: The kits gain Set Snares (and, for IWDEE, Evasion), even without those abilities in the 2das. That looks normal. But the Tomb Runner kit also has added Set Snares in it's 2da file (the other kits don't). So basically, it gains more uses than the other kits. Maybe it's meant to be this way, but there's nothing in the description.

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2 hours ago, Dan_P said:

A different question, semi-related to my previous post. How exactly do the multiclass thief kits gain their abilities?

As mentioned, Tomb Runner gains an extra +1 backstab at level 17. I was trying to patch it out, but editing the 2da in the override doesn't change given abilities. Editing the 2da in the mod folder (before installing) does make the changes. So I'm assuming the abilities are added from some other custom file. It's probably obvious what it is, but I couldn't figure it out.

Additional note: The kits gain Set Snares (and, for IWDEE, Evasion), even without those abilities in the 2das. That looks normal. But the Tomb Runner kit also has added Set Snares in it's 2da file (the other kits don't). So basically, it gains more uses than the other kits. Maybe it's meant to be this way, but there's nothing in the description.

So, multiclass kits are a bit complicated. They do not get kit abilities from their CLAB table; instead, they get every ability from the Trueclass CLAB table. So a Tomb Runner F/T will get everything in CLABFI01.2da and everything in CLABTH01.2da. trueclass thieves get Set Snares, which means every single multiclass thief kit will also get that ability. There are things you can do about it - generally I strip the ability out later... there's another way to do it but I haven't gotten around to it yet. But basically it can be finicky, and sometimes things sneak through. (You think that's complicated, consider that the Trueclass mage, the Wild Mage, and the Trueclass sorcerer all get kit abilities from CLABMA01.2da... and even when you try to use e.g. op177 to distinguish among them in applied abilities, you run into the ridiculous fact that sorcerers answer true to CLASS=MAGE... :wallbash:)

So what the multiclass kit function written by Aquadrizzt (and largely perfected by Argent77) does is, it reads the (unused) multiclass kit's CLAB table, creates .EFF to apply all kit abiliities, and adds 177 effects targeting that kit to a spell applied in the Trueclass CLAB table. One such spell is applied at every level, in all the Trueclass CLAB tables. The function lets you decide which underlying class will get which kit abilities; I think in MnG all the thief multiclasses get their abilities from the thief side (i.e. when you level up in the thief class, i.e. from the "QD_" spells in CLABTH01.2da).

So if you want to alter a kit ability for the Tomb Runner, and it is an ability applied at 17th level, you would open QD_MCT17.spl in NI or DLTCEP, and find the 177 effects targeting the Tomb Runner kit, and modify it there.

Glancing at my current game... I see that the Tomb Runner has AP_SPCL332 at 17th level. Honestly, I don't know why that is. Possibly because the Feats component dropped the max backstab multiplier in BACKSTAB.2da from 5 to 4, so that effect is intended to get the Tomb Runner back to normal since they don't get feats? (Except, I did just give them feats in the recent update, so...) I'm not sure. It definitely looks weird, and should probably be removed. I'll look into it when I have the time. But yeah, if you want to remove it now you should delete the corresponding 177 effect in QD_MCT17.spl.

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