Unearthed Arcana presents Might & Guile: tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues

[subtledoctor]

No. There are several mods that do already. I always thought that kit was dumb, not worth the effort.

[Guest Arthas]

Is there a post where you write extensively why it is dumb?

[subtledoctor]

1) It revolves around MR, the game mechanic I hate more than any other. 

2) There’s no clear in-game justification for their abilities. How does a fighter kit - a class designed skills that are nonmagical, based on strength of arms and skill with weapons and tactics - get this ability to resist or disrupt magic? Other warrior kits have abilities based on nonmagical skills that interact with game mechanics - called shots, enhanced determination expressed as fear immunity, berserking expressed as charm/fear immunity, etc. I get those. But these WS powers seem downright supernatural... in a class that ostensibly hates the supernatural. 

3) The item restrictions make no sense. You can use an enchanted sword, but not a rod. You can use an enchanted shield, but not a cloak. You can use an enchanted helmet, but not a belt. Why?? It makes no sense to me. 

4) Typical for munchkin-fest BG2, all of the kit’s trade-offs are ignored. Wizard Slayers are not supposed to work with wizards, but you can fill your party with Aerie, Jan, Nalia, Imoen, and Edwin, and there’s not a single consequence, not even a single mention in dialogue. If it were a kit only for an NPC and that NPC and their game content would not join the party if you play a wizard, that would be cool. (Would have made sense to do that with Valygar too, but instead Valygar is the gateway to the wizard stronghold.) How about, if you are affected by a beneficial spell, it’s supposed to short out your special abilities until you atone. A kit that cannot pre-buff! Might be hard to implement, but how about just making their resistance block beneficial spells in addition to harmful ones, BG1-style? 

Nope. Any sensible way to handle this kit was evidently deemed to be too noob-unfriendly, so instead Bioware just made it... dumb. (See also The Berserker.)

EDIT - feh, see what you did now? Getting me talking about how the kit is bad got me to ranting about how BG2 is bad. 

It was such a disappointment. All we wanted was more BG1 - more content, more mechanics, more class options, more spells, more levels. Was that too much to ask?  But Bioware had to tether those things to more hand-holding. Boo.

Edited January 29, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Jarinex]

Mmm I wouldn’t say it’s bad by any means. Kits maybe, but thats why I like and use your mods.
 

 

Bg1 was so.......boring. Bg2 has way more interesting quests and encounters by far.

[subtledoctor]

36 minutes ago, Jarinex said:

Mmm I wouldn’t say it’s bad by any means. Kits maybe, but thats why I like and use your mods.

Bg1 was so.......boring. Bg2 has way more interesting quests and encounters by far.

If you were gaming in the 80s/90s playing difficult games that didn't hold your hand, there was definitely an aspect of BG2 that turned you off.  It was surely drowned out by the great content - NPCs with personality (ish)! So many spells! Kits! Strongholds! Dragons! Etc. - but some changes seemed to have no purpose but to make the game more newb-friendly.  Some of the more glaring examples being, letting beneficial spells bypass MR (which of course led to the stupid MR-arms-race aspect of late-game play), and pausing the game in the inventory screen (rendering quickslots moot and potions OP).  BG2 and all its great content would have been perfectly wonderful without those changes.  And with Berserker/Wizard Slayer/etc. kits that weren't dumb.

If I were to do something to the Wizard Slayer, it would probably be to push it further in the direction it already goes.  Cancel the fluff about hating magic, and instead make it someone who, via genes or some kind of magical accident in the past, is infused with magic... but magic gone awry, that is somehow polarized and causes negative interference with other magic around them.  Give them a permanent aura they can't turn off, which causes casting failure or, maybe better, a casting level penalty in everyone around them (enemies and allies) (but this would want spells to be fixed to have ability headers for lower casting levels, which would be a huge PITA).  Maybe also a Luck bonus for everyone so that everyone (again, enemies and allies) takes less damage from spells (but this would be complicated by weapon damage effects).  Maybe also a save bonus for everyone (again, enemies and allies) so that all spells are less likely to be effective.  Disallow ALL magic items... or maybe, each magic item work adds a cumulative penalty like -1 CON or something, due to the painful interference between the item enchantment and your polarized magical energy.  Personal MR could work in this context, but something like starting at 10% and maxing out at 30%.  Add a personal enchantment bonus to all attacks (thanks to the new EE opcode) because you're not supposed to use enchanted weapons; this would severely gimp the character against mages with PfMW, but too bad, they are protected against magic attacks and you are magical.  Give an innate Dispel ability (regular dispel, not Inquisitor nonsense) by way of focusing and extending their natural anti-magic aura.  That might knock out the PfMW for you... or might not.  (Maybe make it school-less, to bypass SI:Abj.)

Something like that could be an interesting take on an anti-wizard warrior kit.  It would involve theme-appropriate disadvantages, that actually make it hard to have wizards in your party.  But, it would be a lot of work to do right, with an end product that I'm not sure people would actually want to play. 

I do have my Mage Hunter ranger kit, which I think is a  more reasonable take on an anti-wizard warrior.  It's in the ranger class, so it embraces some magic and thus avoids the weird "hate magic but use magic" inconsistency of the fighter kit.  And some of its ideas are along these lines, with non-magical, skill-based methods of countering magic, like melee attacks that target chakras to disrupt the target's casting ability, or a sound-based vocal ability to mess with casters' eardrums and disrupt casting (which of course is not party-friendly).  It also has Breach and Deflection, which are less justifiable... but at least it is already a caster class, so it makes some sense.  Maybe I'll work on the Mage Hunter kit to give it abilities that are more justifiable.  But the original Wizard Slayer... as I say, it's really not worth the effort.

Edited January 29, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Jarinex]

Fair enough, I just wouldn't say the game overall is bad though lol. I do agree the kits are....underwhelming. Like I said, that’s why I like your mods and the mods that improve the experience overall (scs, spell revisions, item revisions, etc).  You and your collaborators give them more uniqueness, so I appreciate that.

[Guest Arthas]

Subtledoctor, I saw now your posts. Thanks a lot for writing them! I will be reading them eagerly.

[subtledoctor]

I don’t see any description there

[subtledoctor]

MnG v4 'Improved Rangers' already gives rangers Tracking as a level 1 skill (or, if you use the feat system, they automatically get it as a feat... and btw then thieves can also learn to use Tracking).  It also gives them a x2 backstab multiplier so that their stealth is more meaningful. 

EDIT - actually they might not get it automatically, if the feat system is installed; I recall in a recent SoD game actually choosing it for Minsc.  But it is definitely available.

FnP expands the 'racial enemy' thing to much broader groups, though groups based on your geographical kit rather than something you choose.

The 'Scouting' thing is probably not possible.

'Hunter's Bond' is perfectly doable, in the EEs anyway.  But I'm not sure I really like the idea.  A ranger should be attacking.  Rather than code it as a bard song, I could possibly see doing it as a permanent passive effect: all allies within 15' get some (smaller) bonus against your racial enemy, all the time, forever.  I'm still not sure it would be worth the effort, though...

Edited January 30, 2020 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

Ya, I always like to read other peoples' thoughts about this stuff, it inevitably gives me ideas to implement.

[Endarire]

The best way to beat casters?  Better casters!

That's how 3e mid/high level play normally works.

[Greenhorn]

With all due ( and well deserved I might add ) respect to the author of this fine mod ( and many others besides ) I must point that this mod is currently only EE compatible due to the some opcodes which are EE specific and cause CTD in old, "classic" games. Some older versions are still compatible luckily but I think "readme" should be corrected to warn about this issue for players who might wish to try this mod on non EE games. It would spare them from couple of unpleasant surprises at the least... 

[subtledoctor]

This is about 8 different mods in one, so I’m not sure which is causing you problems. The Readme states whether each component is dependent on EE v1.4 or EE v2.0, etc. (I do however see a couple components that have become EE-only, where the Readme has not bern updated to say so - Quickstride and Monk Fists.)

Edited February 22, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Greenhorn]

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

This is about 8 different mods in one, so I’m not sure which is causing you problems. The Readme states whether each component is dependent on EE v1.4 or EE v2.0, etc. (I do however see a couple components that have become EE-only, where the Readme has not bern updated to say so - Quickstride and Monk Fists.)

Yeah, I was thinking of Quickstride ability which is very nice feature ( among others) and installs perfectly fine in Tutu and BGT but uses EE opcode only. Unfortunate consequence of this is that it slows all "speedy" characters like barbarians and some custom kits but when you activate or deactivate it ( sorry, I forgot it ) there is CDT. I managed to find older versions which doesn't cause this problem. I imagine that it wouldn't be terribly inconvenient to keep old opcode for old games or at least stop allowing it for install on incompatible games. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Greenhorn

[subtledoctor]

@Greenhorn can you tell me which version you ended up using successfully?  I can take the old code and integrate it for pre-EE users. 

BUT, be aware, I changed the code for a reason.  Specifically, in the Quickstride component, the old version adds a "change movement speed" effect every time you use or cancel the ability.  If you toggle it hundreds of times over the course of a game, that adds up to a LOT of effects on your character's .CRE file.  I have no idea what that will do to savegames, but it probably ranges from "okay, but not great" to "possibly causing problems when you are hundred of hours into a run."  That's not something I want to be putting into player's games, so I switched over to the new opcode that cancels an effect.  So the new version only ever puts zero effects or one effect on your character. 

(And, I must insert the obligatory inveighing to suck it up and move to the EEs.  If you've waited this long, you can wait until they are on sale for pennies, and pick them up easy and cheap.  And they are a LOT better if you play modded games.  In 2014 I myself was making the argument to stay with the pre-EE games; in 2016 I was no longer making that argument but I still sympathized with it; but now, in 2020, IO don't think it is valid anymore.  Not trying to start a debate here, just adding my POV as a modder.)