Dispel/Remove topic (continued from SCS forum)

[toxin]

Oh no, I definitely wouldn't touch Dispels, sorry. I wouldn't allow Breach to take them down (it's broken enough as it is), but dispel is... a dispel.

 

That could promote a strategy of only buffing on undetectable buffs, as to prevent the AI from using RM. That could actually be an interesting motivator for preventing "over-buffing" (I for one confess to have contracted this syndrome ).

Of course the AI could then be tweaked to use RM anyway, in anticipation of such a strategy?

BTW, could you list the spells you deem "undetectable"?

[kreso]

Here it is, link.

Some notes, since it doesn't have a Readme section:

- install after SR and before SCS

- use only with SR

- it modifies Dispelling Screen so that mage casting it buffs others with a one-time protection vs all kinds of dispel spells & Breach attempts

- I didn't include the "one-hour limit" on the buff. However, for as long as Dispelling Screen is active on the mage, he can't re-buff his allies with "fake" DS

- caster is not affected by "fake" DS

- all Breach spells in the game have been modified to remove "fake" Dispel Screen while keeping the target's buffs intact

- "fake" Dispel Screen technically isn't a spell protection, so none of the spell removals work against it. Likewise, it can't be detected by AI so spell removals shouldn't even be used vs it . I'm divided on Spell Thrust, it's easy enough to make it remove this but I skipped it for now.

- AI should use the same spell PCs do, provided this is installed prior to SCS.

- "fake" DS gets removed regardless of the dispel check - dispel is always effective against it, even if cast by a level 1 caster

- "real" DS gets a new animation (red swirling globe which looks fantastic)

- "fake" DS is seen as old Spell Turning (less intrusive)

 

Let me know if it works correctly.

[kreso]

That could promote a strategy of only buffing on undetectable buffs, as to prevent the AI from using RM. That could actually be an interesting motivator for preventing "over-buffing" (I for one confess to have contracted this syndrome ).

Well, it wouldn't matter much. Example - currently you buff Minsc with Chaotic Commands. AI will never target him with Charm; but he'd be subject to Breach/Remove.

With this tweak, he wouldn't get (purposely) debuffed by Remove or Breach, but he could get debuffed by a Charm Person or similar, opening him up to further attempts. Frankly, I think this would be a great way to play this game. Not to forget that game could become a semi-decent challenge even without pinpoint accuracy (read:omniscience) of SCS mages!

Note that items (Lirarcor and similar) would still be "seen" by mages and they still wouldn't waste spells on people with protective items.

 

 

Of course the AI could then be tweaked to use RM anyway, in anticipation of such a strategy?

Yeah, it could. Something like

I SEE ENEMY

I HAVE REMOVE MAGIC

ENEMY ISN'T UNDER DISPELLING SCREEN

FIRE!

AI wouldn't break if few buffs are undetectable (it's even possible to make a spell detectable as something else); so that's not really an issue. Besides, Bless is for example so cheap and so effective with SR that I *always* buff with it.

 

BTW, could you list the spells you deem "undetectable"?

Actually, all of them which don't have a visible animation (spell protections mostly); PfMW (AI should notice weapons have no effect) and similar.

Pro Fire & similar aren't "detectable", but resistances they grant are, so there's little to do against that; but I can live with it.

[AstroBryGuy]

 

I've been following this thread, and there are some really interesting ideas! But this statement has me confused. To what "single-target variant" of Dispel Magic in PnP are you referring? The dispel magic from the PHB is just AoE (30 ft cube), and the AoE is full effect (although you can cast it on an item to temporarily disable it).

 

I'm talking about this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm

My apologies if this is not what is generally meant by "PnP", I am not very knowledgeable in this area.

Ah, ok. They changed Dispel Magic in 3rd Edition. I was thinking about 2nd Edition DM. Sorry for the confusion.

[Ardanis]

Detectable Spells is wonderful, a great innovation for AI in this engine... but, that doesn't mean it HAS to work with everything in the game. Just because peanut butter is wonderful doesn't mean you need to put peanut butter on everything (sirloin with peanut butter, oysters with peanut butter, pizza with peanut butter... yecch.)

There was a (lenghty) discussion about this last time DavidW was around. I could live with such things; but Chaotic Command (and DW as well) protect from so many things that either AI will behave really stupid or they must remain as they are.

An alternate solution (and one I'd actually like & code myself if neccecary) is this:

- both Chaotic Commands & Death Ward are "non-detectable" by AI (example of why I think this is good: a character with Death Ward will *never* get hit by Finger of Death; which pretty much ruins the "job" of this spell in the first place). I'm well aware of AI limitations with this, but see further:

- each attack vs them (Charm Person, Confusion etc. vs ChaoticCommands; Finger of Death/Disintegrate etc. vs Death Ward) has about 50% (or 100%?) chance to "remove it".

 

I think this would lead to a much more immersive & exciting gameplay than what SCS currently offers.

You don't really need immunity checks in the first place for AI to be effective. Target randomization is quite enough to block the exploit of tanking it with one immune character, while the rest shoot from behind.

[toxin]

Ah, ok. They changed Dispel Magic in 3rd Edition. I was thinking about 2nd Edition DM. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Don't worry about it, I was the one who should have been more clear (after all, BG2 is based on the 2nd edition). I do think however that the change they made is an admission of sorts of how (overly) powerful it was in the 2nd edition.

 

Well, it wouldn't matter much. Example - currently you buff Minsc with Chaotic Commands. AI will never target him with Charm; but he'd be subject to Breach/Remove.

 

The way I see it, there are 3 options

1. Minsc is protected by CC alone, without your mod. The AI recognizes this and fires breach, removing CC with 100% and you have no way to block it. Not fun, but I can live with it.
2. Minsc is protected by CC alone, with your mod. The AI doesn't recognize it so it fires Charm, removing CC with 30%. Much better for the PC, but now that I think about it it's kind of unfair to the AI, as you typically do know what defenses the AI has (just look at the console) and act accordingly.
3. Minsc is protected by CC as well as some general unbreachable buffs (Bless, Chant, Haste, PfE). The AI notices one of the general buffs, fires RM, and dispels everything from the entire party (or at least a big chunk of it). Now this seriously sucks, which is why I brought up a strategy of non-detectable buffs to avoid it. Granted, reduced AoE and mass DS (and maybe even subtledoctor's high penalty save suggestion) could go a long way to mitigate this.

I SEE ENEMY

I HAVE REMOVE MAGIC

ENEMY ISN'T UNDER DISPELLING SCREEN

FIRE!

 

When you say "ENEMY ISN'T UNDER DISPELLING SCREEN" you mean just the wizard that originally cast it right? It's still going to cast RM on the fighter (or on itself in the cases you mentioned such as invisibility) because you want to burn the DS and fire it again I presume?

 

Actually, all of them which don't have a visible animation (spell protections mostly); PfMW (AI should notice weapons have no effect) and similar.

 

I guess haste should be pretty noticeable too

 

install after SR and before SCS

 

So if I already have a stack of mods installed I need to unwind and rebuild it? Something like:

1. Uninstall aTweaks
2. Uninstall SCS
3. Install your mod
4. Install SCS
5. Install aTweaks

?

[kreso]

 

1. Minsc is protected by CC alone, with your mod. The AI doesn't recognize it so it fires Charm, removing CC with 30%. Much better for the PC, but now that I think about it it's kind of unfair to the AI, as you typically do know what defenses the AI has (just look at the console) and act accordingly.

AI doesn't buff fighters with anything; apart in very rare cases, and never with clerical buffs (they get them since they have AoE - Def.Harmony, Chant etc.). I can make Charm remove CC 100% of time.

 

 

 

I SEE ENEMY

I HAVE REMOVE MAGIC

ENEMY ISN'T UNDER DISPELLING SCREEN

FIRE!

 

When you say "ENEMY ISN'T UNDER DISPELLING SCREEN" you mean just the wizard that originally cast it right? It's still going to cast RM on the fighter (or on itself in the cases you mentioned such as invisibility) because you want to burn the DS and fire it again I presume?

 

Yes, only wizard's version is detectable. RM will be cast.

 

 

 

 

install after SR and before SCS

 

So if I already have a stack of mods installed I need to unwind and rebuild it? Something like:

1. Uninstall aTweaks
2. Uninstall SCS
3. Install your mod
4. Install SCS
5. Install aTweaks

?

 

Sounds about right.

[subtledoctor]

Minsc is protected by CC alone, with your mod. The AI doesn't recognize it so it fires Charm, removing CC with 30%. Much better for the PC, but now that I think about it it's kind of unfair to the AI, as you typically do know what defenses the AI has (just look at the console) and act accordingly.

Maybe YOU look at the console all the time to gain an edge over the (already horribly overmatched) AI. I have my console set to show as little info as possible about what's going on. I want my game to play the way a good book reads. And every good book usually goes like this:

Evil Enchantress: Ha! Silly paladin, your pathetic righteousness will not serve you here. Gaze into my eyes, and become my thrall forever!

 

Hunky Paladin: Like, sorry chica. Your magical gaze doesn't work on me, my holiest of gods has protected me from just such a danger. Now prepare to be cleaved in twain and stuff.

 

Evil Enchantress: Curse you! Well, let's see how your mind shield works when I shove a Fireball up your butt!

I've NEVER read a book like this:

Evil Enchantress: Gaze into my eyes... wait - I can tell by your smug stupid smile, and by some mysterious, unknowable omniscient presence, that your mind is shielded. Therefore I will not waste my Enthralling Gaze on you.

 

Hunky Paladin: Heh. Cool. Why don't you try a Fireball instead?

 

EE: No! I can tell you are Protected from Fire!

 

HP: So how about you summon a demon to attack me or something?

 

EE: Do you take me for an imbecile?? You are surely protected by one of your innumerable castings of Protection from Evil. The demon would only turn and attack me! (And those things are nasty, y'know - aTweaks is installed. With all that 'demonic gating' it could easily cause a crash.)

 

HP: I don't understand what you're talking about, but it's a shame - I totally would have attacked the demon, I could stand to grind some XP. Hmm... well, do you know that fancy Finger of Death spell?

 

EE: Of course I do - I'm a powerful Enchantress! But don't think I'll waste a high-level slot on you, I can see that you are Warded from Death. ... By the way, why have you not been trying to cleave me in twain all this time?

 

HP: What, and tire myself out so you have an advantage? No dice, lady - I saw Rocky III. I can mysteriously tell that you are protected by a Mantle, and it's not like I'm carrying a Holy Sword +6 or something ridiculous like that. I figure, if I keep you talking for another minute or so, that will wear off - I know I'm a hunky paladin but I totally know all about wizard spells and how long they last.

 

EE: Fool! If I am vulnerable I need simply close my eyes, and the second I open them and you become visible to me, a Contingency will render me invulnerable once again! Then you will have no recourse but to waste four more minutes of your life engaged in this pointless back-and-forth! Do you feel the existential dread creeping up from within you? This is my ultimate revenge - truly, death by inches!

 

HP: Lady you are seriously unhinged. Listen I need a coffee if we're gonna keep this banter up. You want I should get you one too? I assume you want a pumpkin spice latte or something girly like that...?

[subtledoctor]

Here's what would probably be ideal: for s certain class of spells (invisible stuff like DW and CC, but not obvious stuff like Fire Shield or GoI), have the spell be undetectable. Then, when certain spells hit that character - Charm/Dominate/Confusion etc. for CC, any death magic for DW - they have a 100% chance to dispel the protection, and replace the spell with an alternate version that is detectable and dispellable and Breachable.

 

You could even put the player and AI on the same footing, by having the console feedback for the base spell just read something vague like "Protected" and have the feedback when it is replaced by the alternate version read "Protected by Chaotic Commands."

[AstroBryGuy]

Subtledoctor - you forgot the part where Hunky Paladin slept in the hall outside her door so he could rest, recover HP, and have all his spells/protections available before the battle. ;-)

 

In all seriousness, the cat-n-mouse game of spell protections almost makes that behavior mandatory. If your party is out of castings of particular counter-spells (even if you have plenty of other spells to cast), then you're stuck with "unstory-like" methods, like waiting out protections or doing a "rest in the hall right outside the Big Boss' lair".

 

So, any improvements that can make the game play more like a heroic (or anti-heroic) story would be cool.

[subtledoctor]

 

In all seriousness, the cat-n-mouse game of spell protections almost makes that behavior mandatory. If your party is out of castings of particular counter-spells (even if you have plenty of other spells to cast), then you're stuck with "unstory-like" methods, like waiting out protections or doing a "rest in the hall right outside the Big Boss' lair".

Honestly, you might be surprised at how unnecessary that kind of stuff actually is. When I play I make a point of pushing onward and onward, even when most of my spells are exhausted, until I started taking a lot of damage that I can't recover from without going through all my healing potions. Then I retreat, heal at a temple, sleep, and start the day.

 

A lot of players end up with something like toxin's buff routine (no offense intended toxin, it's just a great example of how some people play). But try forgoing it. After you spend all your buffs and a bunch of spells and healing defeating the party by the Mask of King Strohm, march straight on to Conlan and take a chance fighting him. Maybe 2/3 of your tactical arsenal is gone... but you might be surprised how well you can make do with whatever's left.

 

I doubled the number of encounters I tackle between each rest, and it makes the game a lot more fun. You really feel like you are pushing the characters to their limits, winning tough fights even when at a disadvantage. (Without going to the crazy lengths of the RE Chosen of Cyric encounter.)

[kreso]

Here's what would probably be ideal: for s certain class of spells (invisible stuff like DW and CC, but not obvious stuff like Fire Shield or GoI), have the spell be undetectable. Then, when certain spells hit that character - Charm/Dominate/Confusion etc. for CC, any death magic for DW - they have a 100% chance to dispel the protection, and replace the spell with an alternate version that is detectable and dispellable and Breachable.

 

You could even put the player and AI on the same footing, by having the console feedback for the base spell just read something vague like "Protected" and have the feedback when it is replaced by the alternate version read "Protected by Chaotic Commands."

Actually, this is more-less how SCS works now. First round of combat casters don't "use" Detectable spells (they do, but behave as if they don't). Likewise, some casters buff with "hidden" buffs as soon as you enter the area.

Replacing spells with "alternate" version when they're removed etc. isn't something I'd delve into.

[toxin]

AI doesn't buff fighters with anything; apart in very rare cases, and never with clerical buffs (they get them since they have AoE - Def.Harmony, Chant etc.). I can make Charm remove CC 100% of time.

 

OK, so long as the undetectable buffs aren't used by the AI anyway I suppose it's no less fair than the current situation. I actually liked the idea of progressing percentages according to spell level, or even the lately-popular charge/level based protection (e.g. protect against X levels of spells).

 

Yes, only wizard's version is detectable. RM will be cast.

 

Yes, but it should really be cast again in case the previous attempt was blocked by DS (assuming the AI can tell something like that). Otherwise there's no point in casting it in the first place.

 

Sounds about right.

 

Cool, thanks for confirming. BTW, since you modified Breach, will it conflict with subtledoctor's breachier breach fix from the Rakshasas thread (in ST's words: set all of the main spell's effect to power level 9, so that spells will affect rakshasas; it will in turn cast the secondary spell which has the structure laid out by galactygon (0-point AC bonus at power level 5, the rest of the breach effects at power level 9)? And if so, I'm assuming I should install breachier breach after you mod?

[subtledoctor]

 

Here's what would probably be ideal: for s certain class of spells (invisible stuff like DW and CC, but not obvious stuff like Fire Shield or GoI), have the spell be undetectable. Then, when certain spells hit that character - Charm/Dominate/Confusion etc. for CC, any death magic for DW - they have a 100% chance to dispel the protection, and replace the spell with an alternate version that is detectable and dispellable and Breachable.

 

You could even put the player and AI on the same footing, by having the console feedback for the base spell just read something vague like "Protected" and have the feedback when it is replaced by the alternate version read "Protected by Chaotic Commands."

Actually, this is more-less how SCS works now. First round of combat casters don't "use" Detectable spells (they do, but behave as if they don't). Likewise, some casters buff with "hidden" buffs as soon as you enter the area.

Replacing spells with "alternate" version when they're removed etc. isn't something I'd delve into.

I'm not talking about what you know about the AI, I'm talking about what the AI knows about you.

 

My understanding is, if you are protected by Chaotic Commands, the AI will mysteriously know that, and will never target you with Charm Person or Mental Domination. That is bad. (IMO.) How could they know what you did or didn't cast in the other room?

 

What my proposal would do is, if you are protected by Chatic Commands, it will be undetectable so the AI might try to Dominate you. This will fail, and afterward your protection spell will become detectable. The AI will, in effect, learn from its mistake and then switch to using more effective spells against you.

[kreso]

 

AI doesn't buff fighters with anything; apart in very rare cases, and never with clerical buffs (they get them since they have AoE - Def.Harmony, Chant etc.). I can make Charm remove CC 100% of time.

 

OK, so long as the undetectable buffs aren't used by the AI anyway I suppose it's no less fair than the current situation. I actually liked the idea of progressing percentages according to spell level, or even the lately-popular charge/level based protection (e.g. protect against X levels of spells).

The thing is - the opcode used for this is "flawed"; at least when it comes to "magic" attacks.

I did some testing with it yesterday, tweaking original Spell Shield so it stops 12 levels of "offensive" spells. Worked fine vs Flame Arrow & Magic Missile.....I'll test some more; if it worked it would be cool.

 

 

 

Yes, only wizard's version is detectable. RM will be cast.

 

Yes, but it should really be cast again in case the previous attempt was blocked by DS (assuming the AI can tell something like that). Otherwise there's no point in casting it in the first place.

AI will use Remove provided:

a) it has it memorized

b) PCs are buffed

c) PCs aren't under SI:Abj (Dispel Screen)

 

Given that your buffs will stay after initial Remove; if AI has another RM it will be used. If not, tough luck (mage will probably have Breach as well, so not all is lost; or use Breach before Remove).

 

 

breachier breach

 

If that patches spwi513b and spwi513c (like written in the linked post) I assume it's safe to install these in any order, since I don't touch neither of those two.

What I do with my mod is this:

1) copy a "blank" spell in the override (spwi513d - I should rename it....ugh.)

2) patch Breach to cast this spell as well (that's all I do with the original spell, be it SR version; vanilla, Fixpacked, subtledoctored or whatever else)

3) fill in the "blank" spell with an effect that removes Dispel Screen ("fake" version of it) via secondary type.

 

In any case, I haven't seen a single Rakshasa use SI:Abj or Dispel Screen so....