[Poll] XP Cap for different parts of the story

[K4thos]

With the way new EET is coded (using CAMPAIGN.2DA feature from patch 2.0) it's extremely easy to set an XP CAP that will affect only part of the story. Personally I don't see anything wrong with XP Caps and can see negatives in lifting them completely or setting ToB XP Cap by default, like BGT does.

Let's say someone installs BG1 Drizzt Saga mod (even worse - without an option that delays it) and finishes it right after dealing with Gnolls. Gee, thanks mod, the party is now overpowered (without any effort since it's the op Drizzt NPC who killed all the opponents) and whole later BG1, as well as SoD and SoA experience is broken difficulty wise.

This can be mostly solved by installing mods that can globally adjust amount of XP rewards during your journey (for example EET Tweaks have such components), but should we expect new players to know about such external possibilities? And how the new player would know what values to set with the particular mod selection even after reading mod readme files? Maybe it's a better idea to leave experienced players with an additional step in order to shape the game to their tastes rather than risking breaking the game for less experienced mod users?

That's my thoughts, but I don't want to force it on others or create a situation in which most players will install external components to change it, hence the poll. Please vote and consider leaving a written feedback.

[Bill Bisco]

Here's my opinion on the matter. The post is a bit long, but please read through it.

 

1. New players tend to have a hard time learning a new game, and don't like arbitrary hindrances keeping them back. Say a player encounters a difficult section of the game and they keep on dying from this same battle over and over and over again. They have a few options.

 

a. Keep on fighting still and hope to get lucky (Bad. They have already tried this)

b. Quit the game and start over again. (Bad. We want people to finish the game).

c. Cheat or mod the game further to make the game easier. (Bad. We don't want people to cheat and neither do they. They just figured out how to install this complicated mod; they don't want to do it again!)

d. Grind for XP and try again. (Decent. This may actually work!

 

People intuitively understand that gaining more xp leads to gaining more levels which leads to easier battles. If you arbitrarily prevent people from grinding then you risk frustrating them more and leading to options a-c. People have been grinding on Final Fantasy 1 - 14 for a good reason! The games are hard for them and they need a boost that doesn't come from cheating!

 

2. The second main reason XP caps are bad is that they discourage adventuring once you reach the cap. Now all of a sudden, you're not getting anything from your continued quests, so why quest? In essence players feel disincentivized to really explore and appreciate the world around them and just need to go on rocket-mode and finish the game as quickly as possible. In real life, high taxes discourage people from working further. A 100% tax on earnings or an xp cap in this case, discourages people from adventuring in an adventure game which is not a good thing.

 

3. Additional ancillary reasons for not having staggered xp caps. How is a new player supposed to know the xp cap for each section of the game? Yes, you can write about it in the readme, put up warning signs in loading screens, etc., but all of this complicates the simplicity of a lack of xp cap. We don't want a player to reach the xp cap in BG1 and go on rocket-mode to complete BG1 and then they continue to think that the xp cap is in place and go on rocket-mode in BG2 only to find out that the xp cap increased and that they had more reason to stop and smell the roses. Best to avoid that situation by not having an xp cap to begin with.

 

4. Understanding historical reasons for xp caps. XP caps exist for a couple of reasons

 

a. Developers don't want to code spells that would be likely used after the game is beaten

b. Developers want to make money by marketing an expansion with a higher XP Cap.

 

Think about the classic game Shining Force. You'll very rarely get a character there beyond level 30 during a regular playthrough, yet the level cap is 99. Why? Well, leveling is simple, you gain HP, MP, Attack, Speed, & Defense points randomly as you level. The developers didn't have to code anything differently to go from level 21 to 22 than from 98 to 99.

 

Think about World of Warcraft and it's level caps. Why do they have level caps? 2 reasons: new abilities and money.

 

Gaining new levels continues to give characters new unique abilities beyond pure numbers. And gaining new levels (and new abilities) requires buying new expansions. Can you theoretically beat all base World of Warcraft content (level cap 60) if you have Mists of Pandaria installed (level cap 90)? Absolutely! The coding for Mists of Pandaria is there and you can level up all the way to 90 in the base game if you want to!

 

Baldur's Gate is exactly the same. Tales of the Sword Coast increased the level cap (now you could cast higher level spells as the coding was there. You could play only BG1 content and reach the new level cap from TotSC. Baldur's Gate 2 is the same. Throne of Bhaal increased the level cap (now you could cast more 9th level spells and now have new special abilities as the coding was there. You could play only BG2 content and reach the new level cap from Throne of Bhaal.

 

Quite honestly, if D&D was a game that had only Fighters and Thieves, Baldur's Gate would never have had a level cap as plugging in 2 hp per level for a Thief and 3 for a Fighter is simple ala Shining Force. The complicating factor is D&D spells which requires more coding. The game developers justify coding the additional spells by offering an expansion for money which increases the xp cap to accommodate.

 

If Baldur's Gate was designed and released as one huge game today, it would not have an xp cap. They might design it to make it difficult to reach certain levels by certain points by design, but certainly not an actual xp cap.

 

5. Experienced Players / Expert Players will always find ways to make the game more challenging. They'll often handicap themselves in order to make the game harder.

 

6. XP Caps interfere with mods. Will players now need a special option when installing IWD in EET to keep their xp? Does the Drizzt Saga need special options to increase the xp cap so that players can benefit from their new quests? Unnecessary and unintuitive in my view.

 

If someone wants to complete all of IWD and then return to finish Baldur's Gate, let them; that's part of the fun for them.

 

TL DR: Summary

 

1. XP Caps are unintuitive. New players need to be able to grind to beat challenges in the game.

2. XP Caps disincentivize adventuring and exploring the game world: a main feature of an rpg.

3. Staggered XP caps are unintuitive and run the risks of players not noticing that the xp cap has been lifting

4. XP caps exist because of gaining complicated abilities (ex. spells) and to make money off of future expansions. XP caps are always retroactively updated to base content with new expansions (Baldur's Gate Series included).

5. Experienced Players will always find ways to make the game harder and will actively handicap themselves to do so.

6. XP Caps interfere with mods such as iwd in eet, drizzt saga, etc.

 

For the above reasons, I recommend removing xp caps entirely for EET as a default. Implementing XP Caps as install options would be fine.

 

If the goals are a more intuitive game for new players that doesn't punish them, no xp cap is best in my view.

[Sam.]

What Bill Bisco said.

 

IMO, XP tables etc. should go to at least lvl 50. The theoretical XP cap should be high enough that it is not reached after having played BG1 + ToSC + SoD + BGII + ToB + IWD + IWD2 + mods all with "Nightmare Bonus XP" config setting enabled.

[Roxanne]

Voted for No XP cap for reasons already stated by others above. For me, in the EET world the issue would not be to cap it but how to gain your XPs. So I support all the attempts to *unify* and also reduce XPs gained in the various campaigns (like Drizzt Saga or IWD, esp HoW which give you exorbitants XPs in relation to the difficulty of the quest).

To do a full long quest without gaining any benefits will as frustrating as coming into BG2 game at level 20 already. The approach taken with EET Tweaks to reduce some XPs from some mods is probably the right approach and should be extended,

This goes along with my position, that some of the final battles (Sarevok, Irenicus etc) must not necessarily be the hardest battles in the game - like in reality. at the point when you face the final boss, in most cases you have already won the war, just to reach him already means you have broken all his defenses and crossed his plans. (After his armies were beaten, they pulled Saddam out of a hole in the ground where he was hiding)

[Jarno Mikkola]

Voted for the "XP cap for whole EET at 8M like in BGT", because you can then install a separate mod or the EET tweaks to install a level 50(+1) ruleset of your choise. The XP cap is not an actual real one in the original games either(there's an actual separated discussion/matter on this), and my bet is that it's not properly set up now either...

[Fouinto]

"no XP CAP at all", but, whatever as long as EET_Tweaks allows to choose "no XP CAP at all"

[smeagolheart]

I voted no cap at all as well.

 

In BGT, I'd enjoy getting up to higher (relatively) levels in BG1 and gaining more capabilities for things like dual classing than you could normally get. I tend not to play the mod campaigns that give you uber powered loot and xp though.

[AWizardDidIt]

I'd rather arbitrary limitations be removed. If someone chooses to overlevel and sleepwalk through content, then that's something that shouldn't be discouraged. And if you want a highly difficult experience then there are mods like SCS that let you increase the difficulty enough to make encounters hard even for parties that are typically higher level than the encounter would be.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I'd rather arbitrary limitations be removed. If someone chooses to overlevel and sleepwalk through content, then that's something that shouldn't be discouraged. And if you want a highly difficult experience then there are mods like SCS that let you increase the difficulty enough to make encounters hard even for parties that are typically higher level than the encounter would be.

The 8 000 000 xp limitation is not arbitrary limit, it's the very thing that's in the original BG2 game, aka the rule system that's installed to the game has that. And you'll get n00b chars if you level up from a certain limit, aka the level 41, all the characters values are set to very arbitrary set of value. mostly zeroes accross the board, so good bye to spell casting the works. to get pass the 8M xp limit, you just install a mod that allows you to set this and all the other rules to a set you like.

[Bill Bisco]

Jarno,

 

The 8M cap is there because it allows them to still make a hypothetical expansion to ToB ( aka Sandrah Saga) which itself also increases the xp cap to say 100M.

 

If you look at the charts at: https://web.archive.org/web/20090705091406/http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur%27s_Gate:_Progression_Charts

 

You'l notice how they arbitrarily shafted the Thieving Progression. They should actually be able to reach level 40 much sooner (same with Monks and Clerics).

 

You'll notice that they arbitrarily stop giving spells past a certain level because they didn't want to keep building the spell progression tables.

 

Pull back the curtain a bit and ponder. The ToB 8M XP cap is actually more arbitrary than the BG1 and BG2 XP Caps. The Coding for all of the final game abilities is already there in ToB unlike BG1 missing higher levels spells, etc.

 

No XP cap is needed, necessary, or recommended at all!

[Jarno Mikkola]

No XP cap is needed, necessary, or recommended at all!

Have you actually played a game where you removed the XP cap without any other action, aka vanilla game ?

You character when he levels up to 41th level, where ever that line is, will lose all spell memorization abilities, and that's no good. I know this cause it has happened to multiple players in BWP... and the cap needs to be there. If only to be then for you to have to install a mod that removes it and sets some sort of other ruleset. EET Tweak, Tweaks Aniver... what ever. Just like in vanilla BGT-weidu, the vanilla XP cap was not touched AT ALL.

So yes, you need a cap.

 

Or shall we install a ruleset by default...

All clases gain as many levels as they have XP points. Thac0's are set to 0 at level 2, 99 spells per level to memorize and so on and on. DEAL. In case you didn't notice it, these rules make the player a little OP.

 

You'l notice how they arbitrarily shafted the Thieving Progression. They should actually be able to reach level 40 much sooner (same with Monks and Clerics).

Sorry, but that has nothing to do with the XP Cap in sense as, well the 8mil cap that's from the vanilla BG2 game. If you wish, you can very well install a mod that changes the in game rules, that's what they are there for. But WHY SHOULD THE EET give a cheese what the rule system is, or WORSE- INCLUDE ONE OF IT*S own ? Teh BGT-weidu didn't.

 

DO NOT FORGET that the discusion is about the vanilla non moded BG2EE game that is only modified by the EET, and nothing else. If the player wishes, they can then install any and all mods that tweak the in game rules.

[Roxanne]

Jarno,

 

The 8M cap is there because it allows them to still make a hypothetical expansion to ToB ( aka Sandrah Saga) which itself also increases the xp cap to say 100M.

 

 

>>>>> This is not fully correct - for my extension I drastically reset the PC's + Sandrah's XPs (they remain as they were and do not mutate to mega-creatures, their own progression is minimal. In the extension they can gather new NPCs which come at different levels and slowly grow. I have used a different concept here to avoid a neverending race for more XPs demanding more powerful enemies, etc. This would end in some spiral that needs to be broken somewhere unless XPs at the end become irrelevant (who cares whether a mage is level 41 or 42??).

In addition, I build on mods that overall reduce XPs during the game.

I have played through EET with a large number of mega-mods and other mods providing XP and than through my expansion and I ended with my two protagonists to be around level 20-22 at the end of the extended game...

 

 

 

If you look at the charts at: https://web.archive.org/web/20090705091406/http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur%27s_Gate:_Progression_Charts

 

You'l notice how they arbitrarily shafted the Thieving Progression. They should actually be able to reach level 40 much sooner (same with Monks and Clerics).

 

You'll notice that they arbitrarily stop giving spells past a certain level because they didn't want to keep building the spell progression tables.

 

Pull back the curtain a bit and ponder. The ToB 8M XP cap is actually more arbitrary than the BG1 and BG2 XP Caps. The Coding for all of the final game abilities is already there in ToB unlike BG1 missing higher levels spells, etc.

 

No XP cap is needed, necessary, or recommended at all!

Since you referred to my mod, I have given an example above why a) I think we do not need a cap and b) overpowering your party should also be avoided - why would you want to continue if nothing can challenge you anymore (except maybe Vecna mod?)

[K4thos]

Thanks for all the votes.

 

As the poll shows almost no one is interested in additional XP caps in earlier parts of the story, so they won't be implemented by default and will land in EET_Tweaks instead.

After thinking about it more I came to the conclusion that lifting 8000000 XP cap by default would not be a good idea. Jarno probably has a point too when it comes to spell and mods compatibility. Here are the other reasons:
1. higher XP cap than ToB means that several classes which normally can advance up to the level 31 (for example MAGE and SORCERER) could advance to higher level and that can be considered as cheating
2. above mentioned balancing issue would be even more problematic for multi and dual classed characters which 8M XP cap affects the most

I was thinking about introducing "soft" XP CAP instead of "hard" one by setting "-1" value in XPLEVEL.2DA right after the max level that the class can advance to in vanilla game, so for example MAGE would still receive XP past level 31 and show it Record screen, but wouldn't be able to ever gain level 32, which is already above the 8M soft CAP. But that wouldn't solve the balancing issue for multi and dual classed characters. In such case 8M hard XP cap seems like the only valid solution to me that won't affect the late game balance. Does it sound reasonable?

[Roxanne]

Thanks for all the votes.

 

As the poll shows almost no one is interested in additional XP caps in earlier parts of the story, so they won't be implemented by default and will land in EET_Tweaks instead.

 

After thinking about it more I came to the conclusion that lifting 8000000 XP cap by default would not be a good idea. Jarno probably has a point too when it comes to spell and mods compatibility. Here are the other reasons:

1. higher XP cap than ToB means that several classes which normally can advance up to the level 31 (for example MAGE and SORCERER) could advance to higher level and that can be considered as cheating

2. above mentioned balancing issue would be even more problematic for multi and dual classed characters which 8M XP cap affects the most

 

I was thinking about introducing "soft" XP CAP instead of "hard" one by setting "-1" value in XPLEVEL.2DA right after the max level that the class can advance to in vanilla game, so for example MAGE would still receive XP past level 31 and show it Record screen, but wouldn't be able to ever gain level 32, which is already above the 8M soft CAP. But that wouldn't solve the balancing issue for multi and dual classed characters. In such case 8M hard XP cap seems like the only valid solution to me that won't affect the late game balance. Does it sound reasonable?

It sounds reasonable

Here are some figures from my EET playthrough (with all those mods installed that were already available when I started it 2,5 months ago + using EET_Tweak experience reduction for big mods)

I give the figures for my PC (single class) and Sandrah (dual class), as those two had been in my party all the time

3,6 mio XP each after BG2 with TDDz

5,8 mio XP each prior to facing ToB final battle

6,8 mio after finishing my own RtF extension

7,2 mio after my own chapter 31

I have no save for end of BG1 anymore.

[Fouinto]

If Jarno is right (and I am sure he is), the 8M Cap is needed for "unmodded" BG2EE game (and so in "Vanilla EET" ) so, this Cap should also be in EET by default.

Anyway, any player that have installed EET will also be able to install a "Level 50 like" mod or component.

 

BTW, I don't think it affects balance so much : I don't remember having reached it in my last EET runs More than that, XP/level is not the only way to adjust the balance.