Revised SCS

[Demivrgvs]

No, I mean he could be summoned by Summon Monster 9

I hope Demi will find some time to discuss this; I only tweak some code stuff with SR, not the spells or summons.

I will, starting this afternoon.

[Demivrgvs]

Here I am (for once I keep a promise). Let's see...

 

Monster Summoning spells

We discussed Trolls ages ago and I discarded them because their minHP death mechanic is some serious mess and cannot be handled properly by the AI. I said that if it was for me I would completely discard such a stupid mechanic, replace it with vulnerability to acid/fire (20-25%), give them in exchange either a bit of dmg res or a higher regen, and call it a day...but if I do that for summoned trolls without also patching all other in-game trolls we would end up creating an inconsistency. Am I wrong?

 

Also, other than performing as good tanks, trolls don't offer anything special whereas I tried to use monsters with at least some special feature (disease, poison, confusion, petrification, etc.) and that why I picked the Otyugh for MSVII. Now it seems the latter's size is a real issue for its usability in certain areas but I don't see many other interesting options. Standard fire salamanders could be one but we already have efreeti as fire-based summon at the same lvl (albeit it's a completely different summon role).

 

I checked the "Mind Flayer's Ogre" (aka the Ogre on steroids) and wow it's a 15HD ogre ! That being said, I'm not sure where this would go...I cannot see any ogre taking the place of basilisks as the top tier summon.

 

Revised SCS

Really nice job Kreso!

 

Random Stuff

Does it make any sense to make (Limited) Wish a Divination spell? That would solve lvl 7 and 9 lack of divination spells.

[kreso]

Re Trolls - I for one could live with such inconsistency tbh. Fwiw, I've been planning for ages now to make a mod that tweaks the damn troll minhp - replace self mechanic which is beyond silly and makes trolls so annoying that I used to pick old "Death Spell" just to kill them instantly...

 

Just out of curiosity, where did you get the idea about basilisks? I've searched various sources, but they don't appear as an available summon anywhere?

 

Wish Div - well, probably it doesn't matter, but fwiw - that would mean that Conjurers don't have access to it, yet SCS will make it available to them (it doesn't use Diviners) so that would be inconsistent, and I can't really strip this spell from Conjurers.

[subtledoctor]

I still maintain that trolls should simply lose the minhp junk, get 75% resistance to everything except fire/electricity, and get -99% resistance to fire. And then call it a day. Result: they are hard to kill but weak against fire. Why do they need to be more complicated than that?

[agb1]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIX.htm

 

Monster Alignment

Couatl LG

Leonal (guardinal) NG

Celestial roc CG

Elemental, elder (any) N

Devil, barbed LE

Fiendish dire shark NE (in water only)

Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Gargantuan NE

Night hag NE

Bebilith (demon) CE

Fiendish monstrous spider, Colossal CE

Hezrou (demon) CE

A scorpion (poison) or a monster spider would be fine, I think -- maybe scorpion for good to neutral aligned caster, and spider for evil aligned caster.

I wouldn't use demons or elementals for summon 9. And a night hag, while interesting, seems like it would be overpowered.

[Jarno Mikkola]

and get -99% resistance to fire.

Perhaps you should leave the consideration of percentages out of issue... as you have no idea of the scale that that is. As for example, 5 points of fire damage rolls up to be 500 points of actual damage. Next time, use percentages with more caution.

Remove the min1hp rings, and make the trolls have just a regular regeneration and damage resistance... as suggested by std, but no negative resistances.

[kreso]

A scorpion (poison) or a monster spider would be fine, I think -- maybe scorpion for good to neutral aligned caster, and spider for evil aligned caster.

I wouldn't use demons or elementals for summon 9. And a night hag, while interesting, seems like it would be overpowered.

 

I also tought of scorpion, but like many of PnP creatures - it lacks animation.

Demons are covered with Gate and similar already, MS should summon "monsters". Something like a real badass spider(s) would imo be good.

 

 

I still maintain that trolls should simply lose the minhp junk, get 75% resistance to everything except fire/electricity, and get -99% resistance to fire. And then call it a day. Result: they are hard to kill but weak against fire. Why do they need to be more complicated than that?

Yea, something like this. Hard to kill (but not impossible) with anything apart fire/acid, Desert/Fire Trolls gain fire immunity. Iirc, old Tactics mod has "streamlined trolls" component which does pretty much that.

Edited December 2, 2016 by kreso

[subtledoctor]

I also tought of scorpion, but like many of PnP creatures - it lacks animation.

Demons are covered with Gate and similar already, MS should summon "monsters". Something like a real badass spider(s) would imo be good.

IWD(EE) has a harpy animation. Perhaps it could be used for something approximating a night hag. It wouldn't be true to PnP, of course, but at this level a deviation is pretty much guaranteed.

 

Or what about recoloring the greater wyvern animation, give it some funky abilities and resistances, and calling it a drake?

 

In the other hand, I still think the MS spells should be capped at level 7 or so... summoning fiends should be the progression from there. (And I still think there should be 3 levels of fiend summoning - either levels 7/8/9 or levels 8/9/10.) Fiends are the logical progression from summoning monsters... it's "big league" summoning. And therefore appropriate for the highest spell levels.

 

Bonus: this would involve the least effort by far.

[agb1]

The drake/wyvern thing reminds me of a certain encounter along those lines in the Cloakwood forest.

[kreso]

In the other hand, I still think the MS spells should be capped at level 7 or so... summoning fiends should be the progression from there.

The thing is, there is a major difference in MS vs Demon summoning. You can control MS monsters 100% of time, Demons can turn on summoner with a 15% chance.

[subtledoctor]

I was thinking of Ascension... or Tactics... I forget, I haven't played it in a very long time. But doesn't Abazigal have a pair or drakes or mini-dragons or something? Seems like that would make a decent 9th-level summon.

[kreso]

P.S.

I've just checked Tactics code, it's very simple and it preforms a mass patch going through creature animations - if it finds any of the troll variants, it will strip away their junk items. While this could be used (I'd be 100% for it) I'm not sure SR should delve into such stuff....

 

P.P.S.

Is Gauth/Beholder summon too crazy?

Edited December 2, 2016 by kreso

[subtledoctor]

I've just checked Tactics code, it's very simple and it preforms a mass patch going through creature animations - if it finds any of the troll variants, it will strip away their junk items. While this could be used (I'd be 100% for it) I'm not sure SR should delve into such stuff....

 

P.P.S.

Is Gauth/Beholder summon too crazy?

I think it's worth making a simple little standalone mod for the troll thing. Even submitting it as a component for Tweaks Anthology.

 

I think Demi once said that trying to script a party-friendly beholder would be a total nightmare.

[kreso]

 

I think it's worth making a simple little standalone mod for the troll thing. Even submitting it as a component for Tweaks Anthology.

 

I think Demi once said that trying to script a party-friendly beholder would be a total nightmare.

 

Yea, but that won't help SR much in any case. Beholder could maybe just use vanilla script (i.e. shoot the damn rays around at enemies).

[CrevsDaak]

P.P.S.

Is Gauth/Beholder summon too crazy?

IMO yes. 1) They are the most script dependant creatures in the game, and I don't like my summoned creatures to be controlled by a script (because they usually just suicide when this happens). 2) They would be beyond broken. Just gather some thrash summons to bait out the enemies' Death Spell, then drop the Gauth and it'll cuck them unless they have Spell Turning and it doesn't use the Anti-magic Ray first.

 

If you gave the summoned Beholders cast-at-will innates with Aura Cleansing (remove/re-add the innate every time it is used, with some delay), you could make them work manually, but again, they woulds still be broken (and REALLY hard to manage). Still, I am going to say this sounds like a lot of fun... And a lot of work, as well.