Rebalancing spellcasting and other aspects of clones/images?

[subtledoctor]

Okay, so having some difficulty. The 172 effects are more or less all-or-nothing. I tried to mess around with different timing modes and 101 immunities and 337 removals etc., but I cannot make one version that can cast 2nd-level spells, and another version that can cast 4th-level spells. So right now I can make a 60% strength clone that can cast spells up to x level, and a 60% clone that can cast any spells. Where do those two spells fit into things?

 

I could make a variant that cannot cast any spells... but what's the point of that?

 

There are also Mislead and Project Image... I could play around with those... Mislead has the annoying perma-super-invisibility thing that I hate, and Project Image has the annoying 'caster can't move or do anything' thing that I kind of hate.

 

Grammar, I love the idea of restricting the clones' spellbooks to certain schools... but as I have discovered, we only have one shot at these 172 effects. So that couldn't be mixed with limiting by spell level.

 

Hmm, maybe bring back the invisibility-for-caster idea. Maybe:

- 6th-level: You get a clone that can cast up to 2nd (3rd?)-level spells. A Mini-Simulacrum. Could be very useful!

- 7th level: As above, but the caster also becomes Improved Invisible.

- 8th level: full-strength Simulacrum. With or without simultaneous Improved Invisilibity.

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

I am really old school, though. Illusionist was the only subclass of mage when I started out (no "specialists"), no different than druid to cleric. The whole idea behind the effectiveness of illusions was "does the target have a chance to disbelieve", thus rendering moot whatever illusion-based attack was occuring. As much as I love depth in combat, I can't get around the fact that a lot of this looks like "what does the engine allow" as opposed to "what could I get away with as DM". These are fake entities being conjured, else they're just re-branded conjurations.

 

[fiann, feeling pugnacious]

[Grammarsalad]

HA, progress!

 

Okay, you can make as many variants of this spell as you want, AS LONG as you don't mind doing invisible monster madness.

 

I just tested it, and if you modify SIMULACR.SPL to summon an invisible creature, it counts LastSummonerOf(Myself) as the Simulacrum itself. I did this with a summon using Kill(LastSummonerOf(Myself)) and it kills the Simulacrum...

 

That means that all you need to do is:

 

1) Alter SIMULACR.SPL (et al) to summon an invisible monster.

 

2) For any given Simulacrum like spell, set a particular GLOBAL to a particular value IN THIS SPELL using effect #265

 

3) include in the invisible monster's script to check for said GLobal, then 'do stuff' to LastSummonerOf(Myself), including any forced spells to have whatever effect.

 

4) have said invisible monster set the global to 0 and destroyself...

 

It seems that with this strategy, you can have infinite variations on the same spell...

[subtledoctor]

You know I hate using scripts and invisible creatures. I mean for level-up stuff, with non-combat flagged abilities like feat choice sure... but in the thick of battle, I will avoid it if at all possible. Especially if we can reach the desired result using just .SPLs and .EFFs etc.

 

And I think it might be possible. I have twisted Mislead into a powerhouse spell, which creates a full-strength clone with full spellcasting, and instead of freezing the caster like Project Image does, it gives the caster the super-duper-insane-undispellable invisibility from Mislead. It's crazy powerful overall... worthy of 9th level at least.

 

As for the other ones... I'm *this* close to figuring it out. I'm trying to have SIMULACR.SPL use opcode 146 to cast subspells on the clone, which could do all sorts of stuff, like remove all spells of >2nd level, remove all spells of >4th level, remove all Invocation/Conjuration/Necromancy/Alteration spells, etc. Then you could make any number of base spells to create the simulacrum, and temporarily apply permanent 206 immunity to various combinations of the subspells to the caster, which would be inherited by the clone, which would cause those subspells to fails, which would therefore create all manner of variations in the clone. I really think I can make this work, I just haven't hit on the precise combinations of subspells, targeting, timing modes, durations, etc.

 

@Fiann

 

I appreciate the pugnacious suggestions. All of this is worth debating, and I generally share your aversion to the modern dumbing-down and hollowing-out of the specialization that used to be involved in the lore. And I don't think it's a bad idea to come up with a grand idea and make it work as a mod. After all, I already have a mod the literally clones all spells in the IDS table (clones them twice!!) and uses the clones to refashion the bland divine spell system into a set of themed spheres, where followers of different deities get access to a unique set of spells. And it's all set in fairly simple arrays exposed to the end-user, so anyone can fine-tune the system to their own preferences.

 

It would be utterly amazing to do something like that for Illusionists - make a more complete and rounded set of Illusion spells, and make Illusoinary versions of regular spells, and make Images and Shadow Clones able to cast illusionary versions of real magic. If you're up for something like that, I've been down a similar road and would be happy to give you pointers. My mods are mostly on Github and the code can be adapted for the use of anyone who cares to do so. (FnP isn't on Github yet, but if Grammarsalad agrees I'll put it up there soon.)

 

Thing is, I'm just not feeling that project, personally. I don't have enough time, and I can convince myself it's okay to have clones casting real magic. See, I figure magic is ultimately a semantic art. Certain symbols, certain phrasings, certain harmonies and vibrations, can interact with the Weave to create discrete, controlled effects. That's why in addition to regular magic, there are things like the Symbol: and Power Word: spells.

 

A clone image created by magic, with enough realism and substance to be perceived and believed, is no different in a semantic sense than a real spellcaster. If I tell you a powerful secret through a hand-puppet and some ventriloquism, does it lose its power? What if I record myself saying it, and show you a Youtube video? In a place like the forgotten realms, as far as the semantics of magic is concerned, a magical invocation by a perfect illusionary replica of me is just as effective as one by me. Thus: clones can cast magic.

 

Is that the best rationale? Perhaps not. But for purposes of these games, it's good enough to sustain my enjoyment.

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

You brought up a couple of things I could ramble on about, but I don't want to completely derail the thread.

[subtledoctor]

I don't mind derailing! I created the thread, and I think my questions have been answered. At least, I think I've got this working!

 

So, what do people think of this progression for high-level Illusion spells:

 

- 6th Level: Shadow Clone. This creates a rough facsimile of the caster, though not perfect. (Maybe I'll add a Blur visual effect to the clone.) The Shadow Clone has the equivalent of 60% of the experience (level, hit dice, skills, etc.) of the original caster, and can replicate some small amount of the caster's magical abilities, able to cast up to 1st level spells. The Shadow Clone cannot engage in melee combat.

 

- 7th level: Misleading Clone. This spell is cast very quickly, creating a reasonable copy of the caster that can be perceived by all five senses of any onlookers. The Clone has the equivalent of 60% of the experience (level, hit dice, skills, etc.) of the caster, and can replicate a moderate amount of the caster's magical abilities, able to cast up to 3rd level spells. The Clone cannot engage in melee combat. At the time the clone is created, the caster is rendered invisible for 60 seconds. Onlookers who do not carefully scrutinize the effect might easily believe the Clone IS the caster, and the caster may use the distraction to escape or move to some advantageous position.

 

- 8th level: Simulacrum. This spell is an improvement on Misleading Clone. The Clone created has 60% of the experience (level, hit dice, skills, etc.) of the caster, but can replicate all of the caster's magical abilities, able to cast any spells that the caster could at the clone's reduced level. The Clone also has enough substance and stability to engage in melee combat. Simultaneously, the caster is affected by Improved Invisibility, able to move unnnoticed and even attack or cast spells without becoming visible.

 

- 9th Level: Project Image. This spell creates an image of the cater which seems real according to all five sense of onlookers. But this is not a duplicate; the Image TAKES the caster's appearance, leaving the caster without any appearance at all! This is somewhat different from invisibility; the caster cannot be observed, even when affected by divinations like True Sight, until the Image is destroyed. Furthermore, this Image of the caster is no lesser clone; while it cannot engage in physical combat, it is the equal of the caster in all other respects, casting spells any spells known by the caster, at the same level as the caster.

 

So, the power of both the images and the invisibility increases with each spell level. That seems pretty cool...

[Jarno Mikkola]

the Image TAKES the caster's appearance, leaving the caster without any appearance at all! This is somewhat different from invisibility; the caster cannot be observed, even when affected by divinations like True Sight, until the Image is destroyed. Furthermore, this Image of the caster is no lesser clone; while it cannot engage in physical combat, it is the equal of the caster in all other respects, casting spells any spells known by the caster, at the same level as the caster.

Erhm, you might want to make the caster completely untargetable ... even from the clones spells. Because it's too easy to cast a spelltrap and then trap the clones spells to get more spells than without the clone is possible to have.

[subtledoctor]

It's just the Mislead spell, except the clone can cast. This is how Mislead has always worked. When you have Improved Invisibility, you actually have two kinds of invisibility: true invisibility which means enemies cannot see or track you, and they will completely ignore you, but which goes away if you cast a spell or attack; and the secondary Invisibility, which remains after attacking and which letsenemies target you with melee attacks but not spells.

 

With Mislead Invisibility, you get proper, true invisibility (cannot be targeted or tracked at all) which does not go away when you attack or take an action. Strike an enemy... and they will not react at all. If you are a mage/thief you can backstab, and backstab, and backstab again, in successive rounds, without ever moving, and the enemies will not react. The *only* way for the AI to make you visible is to destroy the clone. It's crazy, contradicting everything the game tells the player about how invisibility works.

 

So I'm moving that from 6th level to 9th level. And I'm giving the clone spellcasting, so you are incentivized to take the clone into battle rather than doing the super-cheese 'leave the clone somewhere safe' exploit. And I'm making it so that only single-classed Illusionists can learn the spell, so no backstab cheese unless you dual at level 18.

 

Btw as with all things, it's less dumb with SR, since I'm pretty sure SR True Sight will render the caster targetable by spells.

[subtledoctor]

Here's a 'beta' version, if anyone's interested. There is no scroll for the supr 9th-level version of Project Image - you'll have to add that one to your spellbook manually. (When this is published properly, it will be given to single-class Illusionists automatically as a special bonus.)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86011511/clones.zip

[Grammarsalad]

Regarding project image:

 

What if it worked something like the invisible stalker ( which presumably doesn't have an 'appearance' either)? That is, every round, a new one round duration improved undispellable invisibility is applied to the caster by a delayed effect. This would still be a powerful spell, worthy of 9th level, but here the caster is still occasionally targetable in melee.

[subtledoctor]

Problem is this:

- I have not been able to overcome the clone's level drain hardcoded into the Simulacrum effect

- I have not been able to overcome the caster's super-invisibility hardcoded into the Mislead effect

- I have not been able to overcome the caster's frozen/helpless state hardcoded into the Project Image effect

 

So you pick your poison. The Simulacrum effect has been the easiest by far to adapt to different spell levels, so I've been using that for the most part. But to get a clone with full level and spellcasting, you need to use one of the other ones. (Not saying it can't be done - kjeron seems to have gotten around the super invisibility. I'm just not there yet.)

 

FWIW I'm pretty sure that with SR, caster's with True Sight will be able to see and target you even through super invisibility. (Assuming True Sight doesn't destroy the clone in the first place... shouldn't it?) Lesson: everything is better with Spell Revisions.

 

Also consider that TnB Illusionists are the only ones who will have access to this spell. And they get permanent Non-Detection as a passive kit ability. So the super invisibility seems in line with what they already have.

 

Finally: it's worth thinking about countermeasures. First thing that pops into my mind is adding a 177 effect to Oracle and True Sight that disables spellcasting in illusionary creatures. So even if they are not destroyed, they are at least neutralized.