IR Revised V1.3.800 (2022 January 11th)

[NdranC]

25 minutes ago, pochesun said:

Early my installation order was: unpack IR then unpack IRR (with overwtiring some files) and then istall it. After that i did the same with SR and SRR. Now i was just a bit confused that it should be: first unpack IR then unpack IRR (with overwtiring some files),  then unpack SR, then unpack SRR (with overwtiring some files) and only after all unpacking is done installing IRR and then SRR. I assume now its somehow important that i can not install IR right after i unpack it but before i unpack SR. Or my usual installation order still works?

I think you are making this more complicated than it is. The patching of IR doesn't affect SR. Just patch both then install both IR>SR. That simple. You did it correctly in your example.

[spanyam]

10 hours ago, NdranC said:

This works. My current install was made with the EET Install Tool and IRR + SRR + a lot of other mods. I made my own custom basic mods to it as well by modifying basic 2da files and copying them over. If you just want an easy and simple client it's probably the most painless way but might not be the best way if you know what you are doing.

Remember to check the settings.ini files for IRR and SRR for more customization and settings that will not show up with the automatic tool.

Ahh yes, I haven't tweaked the ini files at all. Will take a look today!

5 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

You certainly don't need a mod manager for four mods...

• install EET (will take... ~10-20 minutes?)
• install IR(R) main component (near-instantaneous)
• install SR(R) (will take a minute or three)
• install IR(R) later components (near-instantaneous)
• install SCS (will take maybe half an hour)

Automating that with PI or the quasi-BWS will probably be more complex and take longer than just doing it manually...

I do have other mods installed like BG1 NPC project, Ascension, EET Fixpack, a few tiny quest mods, etc. Plus for the current installation, I am going for a solo ROFLstomp playthrough just to get back into things after years of absence from the game.

Once I am ready for a more hardcore playthrough, I'll likely pare things down quite a bit and customize the install more.

[pochesun]

5 minutes ago, NdranC said:

 The patching of IR doesn't affect SR. 

Ok thats what i wanted to know  Thx. I just thought that somehow it could affect since when unpacking and overwriting some files first IRR and then SRR there was at least one same file that was commonly overwritten twice (both for IRR and SRR). Maybe i forgot something. Anyway thx for clarification.

[NdranC]

50 minutes ago, pochesun said:

Ok thats what i wanted to know  Thx. I just thought that somehow it could affect since when unpacking and overwriting some files first IRR and then SRR there was at least one same file that was commonly overwritten twice (both for IRR and SRR). Maybe i forgot something. Anyway thx for clarification.

For future reference, when you extract a mod into your bg folder you are just placing it there. You haven't changed the game in any meaningful way until you actually run the installer.

[Bartimaeus]

You can extract IRR and SRR at the same time, as long as IR and SR were extracted beforehand. It sounds like you did it right. If you install IR/R and you look in the weidu.log and there's a "Revised" appended to the component description, you did it right (and the same holds true for SR/R).

[NdranC]

8 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

This is kind of already what happens. IR places a couple of items that were used by the import mechanic, basically ignoring that they could be import options and instead just placing them regardless. 4/4 items of the first list will be present somewhere in BG2 with IR installed (well, sort of - Fallorain's Plate just becomes a generic Plate Mail +1, but it's functionally the same), at least assuming Mail of the Dead +2 is the imported item. Similarly, with IRR installed, 4/4 items of the second list will be present somewhere in BG2 assuming that the Helm of Balduran is the item found in Irenicus' dungeon - if instead you choose one of the other three options (such as the Claw of Kazgaroth), that means there will be two Claws of Kazgaroth in the game and no Helm of Balduran, since IRR already places the Claw elsewhere (similarly, if you choose something instead of Mail of the Dead, that means a duplicate of the other option and no Mail of the Dead in the game at all). That's why I was considering disabling the vanilla import mechanic altogether and simply forcing the Helm of Balduran and Mail of the Dead +2 to always be what's found, to prevent pointless duplicates as well as prevent either Mail of the Dead +2 or Helm of Balduran from never appearing in the game.

Even though I like the import feature on a vacuum, I dislike inconsistent behavior more. If it can't be made better then I would agree that killing it is better. Now I'm trying to decide if I'm going to buy the second claw of kazgaroth and wear TWO of them (muahaha) or just pretend it's not there.

Which btw, as one of my favorite items in the game. I would maybe suggest making the HP penalty worse. It really doesn't feel bad at all and the upside is so good. On a fighter type you already have good death saves the claw helps you balance your overall saves somewhat and on a mage you are basically immune to damage anyway. I really haven't felt threaten at all by it. That being said I'm not sure increasing the HP penalty would address that but might feel more dangerous.

I'm just a sucker for high risk high reward items. I recently found some bracers of speed. They are cursed and they give you an extra +1 apr with the downside of a -4 thaco penalty. At that point I was interested but then the next effect was something like 5% chance per hit that you get exhausted. If that effect stacks it just kills the item. I wish all cursed items were not so obviously bad but more of a "deal with the devil" type of items. I can't think of anyone that could use those gloves of speed that can get around the exhaustion. Maybe the thaco but not the exhaustion.

[Cahir]

21 minutes ago, NdranC said:

Even though I like the import feature on a vacuum, I dislike inconsistent behavior more. If it can't be made better then I would agree that killing it is better. Now I'm trying to decide if I'm going to buy the second claw of kazgaroth and wear TWO of them (muahaha) or just pretend it's not there.

Which btw, as one of my favorite items in the game. I would maybe suggest making the HP penalty worse. It really doesn't feel bad at all and the upside is so good. On a fighter type you already have good death saves the claw helps you balance your overall saves somewhat and on a mage you are basically immune to damage anyway. I really haven't felt threaten at all by it. That being said I'm not sure increasing the HP penalty would address that but might feel more dangerous.

I'm just a sucker for high risk high reward items. I recently found some bracers of speed. They are cursed and they give you an extra +1 apr with the downside of a -4 thaco penalty. At that point I was interested but then the next effect was something like 5% chance per hit that you get exhausted. If that effect stacks it just kills the item. I wish all cursed items were not so obviously bad but more of a "deal with the devil" type of items. I can't think of anyone that could use those gloves of speed that can get around the exhaustion. Maybe the thaco but not the exhaustion.

FWIW Kazgaroth the Best had more than one claw So, I think in this particular case immersive explanation is right there. 

[NdranC]

2 minutes ago, Cahir said:

FWIW Kazgaroth the Best had more than one claw So, I think in this particular case immersive explanation is right there. 

Yeah I went to look it up. This creature can shapeshift but it's most common form is that of a tyrannosaurus rex. The Horn is also not a Horn but made from it's tusk. I guess it could be very likely that the mage that made the first claw made a second one as well... Ok I'm convinced, -20% HP here I go.

[Salk]

12 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

From the wiki: "[...] one item from each of the two lists below is brought, with the higher position in the list taking precedence over the lower. For example, a character who has both the Helm of Balduran and The Claw of Kazgaroth in inventory, will only have the helm recovered. Items tagged with [Default] is what is presented if the character either has none of the listed items, or if the player didn't use an imported character. #1 is worn by Ilyich at (1529, 448) and #2 is in a chest at (3748, 907) along with Air Elemental Statue in the same area.

Table #1:

    Protector of the Second
    Mail of the Dead [Default]
    Fallorain's Plate
    Chainmail +3

Table #2:

    Helm of Balduran [Default]
    The Claw of Kazgaroth
    The Horn of Kazgaroth
    Koveras's Ring of Protection +1"

In regards to completing BG2, I have the opposite problem - I've only ever truly finished BG1 like a couple of times, I have so much difficulty retaining interest in the run by the time I clear all the wilderness areas and I finally get inside of Baldur's Gate city proper, and I just want to move on to BG2. Different strokes from different folks and all that.

I find this *extremely* interesting and it's something that always escaped my attention (unsurprisingly, considering the circumstances...).

I don't see much of a reason for anyone not importing a BG1 character/saved game to have any of the items and at the same time I don't see much of a reason (other than, possibly, gameplay balance) for  otherwise having any stripping at all. And I would not absolutely want to lose either the Helm of Balduran or the the Claw of Kazgaroth if I have obtained them in BG1 because those two are iconic items that should not be removed at all. At the very least, I want to move the Claw of Kazgaroth to the other table and make it the default item.

Can these tables be easily tweaked, you think?

Thanks for bringing this thing up!

Edited August 12, 2020 by Salk

[pochesun]

@Bartimaeus and @NdranC thx for explanation

@Bartimaeus I wanted to ask you, if you planning to introduce any big changes in IRR or SRR any time soon? I am going to start a new run in couple of days and if there is a planned patch coming out soon from you i might as well wait a week or so.

Also i been thinking on Claws of Kazgaroth lately and concur with @NdranC that its a bit overpowered. Could it be nerfed a bit in terms of hit points malus or any other way?

Edited August 12, 2020 by pochesun

[Bartimaeus]

14 hours ago, NdranC said:

Even though I like the import feature on a vacuum, I dislike inconsistent behavior more. If it can't be made better then I would agree that killing it is better. Now I'm trying to decide if I'm going to buy the second claw of kazgaroth and wear TWO of them (muahaha) or just pretend it's not there.

Which btw, as one of my favorite items in the game. I would maybe suggest making the HP penalty worse. It really doesn't feel bad at all and the upside is so good. On a fighter type you already have good death saves the claw helps you balance your overall saves somewhat and on a mage you are basically immune to damage anyway. I really haven't felt threaten at all by it. That being said I'm not sure increasing the HP penalty would address that but might feel more dangerous.

I'm just a sucker for high risk high reward items. I recently found some bracers of speed. They are cursed and they give you an extra +1 apr with the downside of a -4 thaco penalty. At that point I was interested but then the next effect was something like 5% chance per hit that you get exhausted. If that effect stacks it just kills the item. I wish all cursed items were not so obviously bad but more of a "deal with the devil" type of items. I can't think of anyone that could use those gloves of speed that can get around the exhaustion. Maybe the thaco but not the exhaustion.

I actually think Bracers of Speed can be pretty good for non-dual-wielding fighters. The exhausting is only 5% and only lasts for 2 rounds (it used to be 5 rounds in IR, but I reduced it to 2 because what the heck, that's so long!).

@pochesun If you're playing an EE game, then no, not really, just a couple of bug fixes and scroll-adding patches I wrote down that I need to get around to, oh and the optional Remove Magic revision for SR. I should probably do those first, but I've been working on the new 1pp compatibility problem instead.

@Salk (and NdranC): Interesting fact I just discovered: IR actually disables the import mechanic - and note that I said "IR" and not IRR, though IRR does as well as a result. It simply makes Helm of Balduran and Mail of the Dead always equip to Ilyich. Apparently, it's been that way for a long while. The lists of items can be changed via IMPORT01.2da and IMPORT03.2da (also interesting - IMPORT02.2da exists in a vanilla BG2 game, and is the list BG2EE uses to import an item to have Malaaq give you, while the Sword of Chaos +2 is moved to the Cambion). So having IR always assume Mail of the Dead +2 and Helm of Balduran were the imported items was inadvertently completely correct, since it was already forcing that to be true, .

Interestingly, I think NdranC said he still imported the Claw, though. Hmm.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[NdranC]

Ahhh I missed the little bit at the end where it says "last for 2 rounds". Actually I kind of agree then, it doesn't sound awful. Too bad my main two-handed blade warrior got disintegrated not too long ago

Then if the import is disabled... Oh you know what happened? I forgot that I had to remake my client for BG2 so instead I just imported my character manually with what I though was the imported item I needed. That's why I already had the Claw of Kazgaroth. If that's the case then I'm just going to pretend that it's not there despite of how amusing it would be to use two of them at the same time. Well, that's good to know.

Regardless if you ever take a second pass at cursed items, if you hadn't already, keep in mind making them more worth it. Maybe the belt of sex change could also make you more charming or because you get to live life as another gender you get a little wiser from experiencing a different perspective than yours. Just a little spice there to make them worth it.

[Bartimaeus]

53 minutes ago, NdranC said:

Ahhh I missed the little bit at the end where it says "last for 2 rounds". Actually I kind of agree then, it doesn't sound awful. Too bad my main two-handed blade warrior got disintegrated not too long ago

Then if the import is disabled... Oh you know what happened? I forgot that I had to remake my client for BG2 so instead I just imported my character manually with what I though was the imported item I needed. That's why I already had the Claw of Kazgaroth. If that's the case then I'm just going to pretend that it's not there despite of how amusing it would be to use two of them at the same time. Well, that's good to know.

Regardless if you ever take a second pass at cursed items, if you hadn't already, keep in mind making them more worth it. Maybe the belt of sex change could also make you more charming or because you get to live life as another gender you get a little wiser from experiencing a different perspective than yours. Just a little spice there to make them worth it.

The bad cursed items are...Ring of Clumsiness (no way to really give this item anything as far as I can see without changing its entire concept), Ring of Folly (at least this one has an interesting twist even if it's still unusable), Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity, and Gauntlets of Might (which could probably be made usable with just a small amount of tweaking: -4 THAC0 is too much, perhaps just -2 or -4 dexterity instead).

As for the Claw of Kazgaroth...it is a bit powerful, but it also costs a lot of money unlike most cursed items. In vanilla, it was:

• +1 AC
• +4 AC bonus vs. missiles
• -4 saving throws vs. death
• +3 saving throws vs. everything else
• -2 Constitution

And now it's...

• +2 AC (no Rings of Protection +2 in BG1 makes this special)
• +4 AC bonus vs. missiles
• -3 saving throws vs. death
• +3 saving throws vs everything else
• -10% HP

Could increase the vs. death saving throws to -5 and/or change the HP bonus to somewhere between -15% and -25%, but again, it's a pretty expensive item that you *have* to buy. (e): I think I'll do -15% and -5 vs. death, don't put this on your main character unless you like to be killed with death effects 100% of the time without Death Ward, .

Edited August 12, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[NdranC]

Quote

Ring of clumsiness: 'The Jester's Folly'. The most notorious owner of this ring made a substantial living exploiting its cursed nature. Gregoria the Foole, a jester by trade, would use his incomparable sleight of hand to switch this ring with that of a patsy taken from the audience. The rest of his performance would involve mocking of the newly clumsy individual, much to the delight of their comrades. The ring was removed (by a method known only to the wily Jester) only once the stooge had promised no reprisals for the treatment he had received, though Gregoria frequently still had to make a hasty retreat. His last known performance was rumored to have been an ill-humored mage in Zhentil Keep; a show from which he did not flee quite fast enough.

Reduces dexterity and stealth to 50%.Casting failure is 75% while wearing this ring.

Being clumsy can have several degrees. Maybe the downsides could be tuned down to 25% each, probably even removing the stealth part since lower dex already affects thief skills. The upside of being clumsy or "careless" could be that since you don't put that much though behind your actions consequences you miss more but you hit harder or maybe you rush to action without thinking so your weapon speed could be set to the fastest and also your casting speed is lowered. Like the concept of "spray and pray" in an FPS.

Equipped Effects:
  Casting Failure +20% penalty
  Casting Speed: +4 bonus
  Dexterity: -20% penalty (or -4 dexterity)
  Strength: +20% bonus (or +4 strength)
  

I know maybe the Casting Speed bonus looks big but casting failure is the worst. If you need a breach out right now and it fails, not only your casting speed became +9 at least because of the wasted round but it leaves the enemies open to cast another AoE or another summon.

Maybe if you are the type of fighter that wants to do more damage at the expense of AC in melee or THACO in range you can do so. As a mage I'm not sure I would take it still. I really hate casting failure but I might after experiencing +4 casting, not sure.

Obviously it can be workshop-ed or approached from a different angle. The description can be slightly updated to highlight the clumsiness comes from increase reckless abandon.

The Claw of Kazgaroth:

It's essentially a Ring of Protection +2 with a downside as is. One of the upsides is you can get a Ring of Protection +2 early in baldur's gate if you buy the claw. I don't think you can actually get them until you make it to baldur's gate 2 and even then I've only seen 1 so far.

The missile AC is useful only early BG1 so it's a plus to get it early. Maybe... Maybe it should also make you immune to death ward? That would make me sweat a little. Make sure I have Spell Deflection Up more often. Or maybe it could reduce healing received by half. Amp up the weakened/closer to death angle.

I'll mull it over some more and maybe show you some more ideas that might inspire you or someone else to refine them or come up with something else.

Edited August 12, 2020 by NdranC

[Bartimaeus]

Claw of Kazgaroth: By the time Death Ward becomes available, I think the bonuses aren't quite as crazy (especially looking forward to BG2 where Rings of Protection +2 are available), so there's probably no need (one should also note that death saving throws also apply to poison effects, so that's disastrously bad in that regard as well, given the deadliness of poison in BG1).

Wow, that vanilla Ring of Clumsiness is so bad. It's simply -2 AC and THAC0 and -1 casting speed in IR/R(?). Not a fan of percentage characteristic bonuses/penalties to begin with - flat modifiers make much more sense for a variety of reasons. The idea of spray and pray is pretty amusing, but I don't really associate clumsiness with speed - just in the opposite, in fact. Still...it's an idea. I'd probably adjust the casting failure to 25%, and probably reduce the strength and dexterity to -2 instead (or stick with the -2 AC/THAC0 that the IR ring has). One thing I don't like is introducing even more strength bonuses, though - if you use 3E-style strength, then it's not a huge deal, but as most people probably don't, stacking strength bonuses leads to insane bonuses really quick. I'm less concerned about BG2, but in BG1, you have a strength tome (+1), Gauntlets of Ogre Power (+2), Big-Fisted Belt for the EE games (+3), and now potentially Ring of Clumsiness (+2), for a total of +8 (...and also there are early-level spells that increase it more). 25 strength grants +7 THAC0 and +14 damage bonuses, and whatever else other penalties are on the thing, that's ludicrous in BG1...and worse, most of these items are obtained pretty early. I generally err on the "let players decide whether they want to exploit stuff" side of things, but strength bonuses are pretty easy to analyze and figure out that stuff is going to be really strong.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Bartimaeus